"Fullbloods" in Australia

[Deleted]

Hi there

Im not so sure that it can be determined 100% there are no "fullbloods" in Australia.

I have a son of Bindalee Celtic Chieftain whose sire is: Trillium Cluny CDCA and dam is: Woodmagic Mourning Dove 2nd CDCA.
I was told he was the first imported Dexter embryo born in Australia - there must be a few more.

So my To Do List for this week consists of;

1. Finding out the number of imported embryos born in Australia along with their names.
2. Seeking information from those 'in the know' about the parentage of these imported embryos' and their ability of meeting the legacy database criteria.

Anyone who can help steer me on the correct paths - I would be so ever grateful

[cddexter]

Lindon: Can't find my other herd books right now, but the 1994 AU HB had 141 imports listed, and 92 born in AU offspring at that point. I know most of the Three Springs Stud females were embryo-ed to death, some with over 100 offspring, I seem to remember. There must be a lot of direct descendants still around.

Just remember that except for a few specific genes, ALL cattle share the same codes. If you have trouble with this, the genetic difference between a human and a chimp is approx. 1%. Something to keep in mind if you are looking at upgrade cattle, where the differences will be miniscule, and mostly to do with cosmetic traits, so you can look over the fence as you drive by, and say, Oh, look, there's a field of Herefords (red, white face, beefy). The ONLY reason for developing 'breeds' was to provide genetic consistency--something a number of people descry in Dexters, oddly enough!

I can give you a list, if you can't find the animals on the Au website registry database. cheers, c.

[Deleted]

Hi C

Its currently lunchtime here and I have found search results but its requiring the entering into each online pedigree and double checking the animal's dam is still in its country of origin.

When you locate your herdbook I would definitely love a listing of names please. I will also do a search on the Three Springs stud. Poor girls!

I really am trying to determine if I have“very close to base” genetics in one of my boys which could be used.

HIs mother goes back to Cally of Old Orchard – have you heard of her?
His sire as stated above.

Here is his online pedigree: Bon Vista Dunbear

I am not convinced that even though it was written Australia didn’t have any female Dexter purebreds – that in the 21st Century we don’t have purebred females today. The importation of embryo numbers is what I am now looking for.

Yes, the possibility of being able to purity test is also a huge driving force for me but it would be nice to now state, Hey - guess what, Australia does have "fullbloods".

[jamboru]

My Mum once had a plan where she was going to breed one line with no Parndon and one line with no Woodmagic. When Mum's friend told CD that, CD said "Good Luck". All these many years later, we have one gorgeous red female with no Woodmagic who won't breed, and one ugly female with no Parndon, whose steer calf is much better looking than she is . The only reason the red one hasn't been culled is because she belongs to my daughter. The only reason the ugly one hasn't been culled is because she is the only descendant of Colorado Sheila in the country.

The only bulls in Au with no Woodmagic or Parndon are Cornahir Outlaw and Bookhams Robert on AI. Wm Hedgehog 4th is the only Woodmagic bull to come to Au who does not have any Doesmead. The Danish "almost Woodmagic" bulls in AU all have some other line in them. Cally of Old Orchard had 10 offsping in 5 years so she was flushed. She had Woodmagic but no Parndon. My reference to that breeding doesn't mean anything except that Mother was in one of her fanatical phases at the time and talked at length about these things.

Who said there are no fullblood Dexters in Au? I suppose it depends what is meant by fullblood. If they mean that there are no Dexters here that descend on absolutely every single line from the early imports to America, then that is true. No totally "back to the arc" US bulls ever came to Au. How many of those are in America?

Mum differentiates our cattle into two seperate "herds", one she calls "full-blood" and the other she calls pure-bred. The US cow Stormie is the matriarch of the 46 cow "full-blood" herd, and another female (1/16 jersey) is the matriarch of the 14 cow "pure-bred" line, now up to 9th cross Dexter, ie about 99.8%, but not mitochondrial. Quite a few "full-blood" cows were imported into Australia, and Sheila was the only one that we know for sure was not flushed. I know that Stormie had 11 daughters and Mum bought 3 of them. She also bought 3 bulls and several daughters from other daughters and/or grand-daughters of Stormie. The only one in our whole mob not descended from those two matriarchs is the very ugly cow, great-grand-daughter of Colorado Shiela who was herself a lovely cow.


Carol, please correct any anomalies.

[cddexter]

Lindon. It's your assn., so I'm not sure why you don't have this info. DCAI grades start with registration number1 1, 2 and 3. Imports start with 4, bred in AU from 4's start with 8. You should be able to look this stuff up yourself.

I'm beginning to sound like a broken record: several major early herds in the US went through a period of no registrations. later on existing animals were registered from scratch pedigrees. There are records of breeders registering stuff that couldn't possibly match the paperwork. There are breeders whom we know falsified paperwork. As you know from the AU everything-dna'd, genuine mistakes happen, too. As was recently pointed out, none of the early pedigrees come with a guarantee. I'd be really careful about making a stand and promoting some animals over others, especially as there is precious little that can be provided as concrete proof, either way.

cheers, c.

[Deleted]

Hi C,
We purchased our first Dexters 12 months and 2 weeks ago.

And as pointed out several times in this forum, we Dexter owners are a little "precious" so 'knowing' where and how information is being displayed is not always easily known - hence why I come to this forum.

There are so many members here who have decades upon decades of knowledge and I am sure none of them can claim to have known all there is about Dexters and their history within their first 12 mths.

Im learning - and I want to know more in the shortess amount of time.
I also want to know 'accurate' / or as 'accurate as possible' information - not all that is readable on the net is factual.

And we are not researching / discovering information about 'our' Dexters to be able to place claim to anything or place them above others.

Im interested in genetics - love the fact we can DNA for most things - and am proud to help out where and when to further DNA testing for the Dexter as a breed.

A friend of mine commented just days ago about how our lot of Dexters will be the most DNA tested Dexters in all of Australia.

She made this comment when I told her about UCD allowing our boys to participate in Breed Assignment research they are currently undertaking with the Dexters.

Yes, we have tested every single one of our 21 Dexters for everything and anything we can possible test them for[except polled]because we wanted to know this information. And we will continue to test every single calf born where 'inheritance' factors arent 100%.

Thats just us.

So now after my babbling on..thank you for letting me know the registration number patterns - that information will certainly help in my research.

And thanks Jamboru - that information is great. But it still leaves me wondering how is it none of the imported semen wouldnt have come from "back to the arc" bloodlines?
We seem to have such a wide range of semen that was and some still being used today?

And what about the imported embryos?

This is what I am trying to discover, to learn about - so I apologise if I am not up with all there is to know..........yet!

[cddexter]

ahhh, that explains it.

The two English bulls that got you started had bloodlines that have been dis-credited by those who belong to the 'purist' group..

Most of the Dexter genetics imported by AU come from bloodlines that those purists now believe may have had some non-Dexter blood in the background, possibly way back, or were misregistered at the time, based on gossip. This makes the purists (justified or not) believe the animals are not and can never be 'pure'. Since AU has always had an upgrade program, 'pure' is a pretty meaningless position. I'm working non-stop till the end of the month, so probably won't have time to dedicate to writing an article for you.

I want to discuss 'purity' as it relates to Dexters, covering the first registrations in Ireland, the source of Dexters in England, a couple of papers from the 1998 Congress and their rebuttals, especially the one by Beryl Rutherford (Woodmagic), and touch on what purity means to the various special interest groups. You won't be surprised to learn that purity can be as little as 3/4, right up to Not Pure at 1023/1024ths, or 10 generations removed from the first cross. It all depends on what definition you want to use. The trouble comes when the definitions clash, and how the disagreement is handled (major understatement here ).

Because putting this together requires me to spend time looking up stuff, it might take a while to get the time to do it properly. cheers, c.

[tarsallat]

Hey Lindon, maybe "C" is right. Is there anyone in Australia that you can be talking to about the history of Dexters in Australia. Is there anyone still in Dexters over there who had them at the start, or knows lots about them?
Maybe you can get the information direct from those in the know.
Is there a forum like this one in Australia that you can join? Maybe you can get some information from there?
Love Australia and just love the people. They have good humor, and talk straight, don't tolerate BS or fools, say it as it is.

[jamboru]

Sorry,I just have to make a correction for Au numbering system
Grade 1 = 50% = reg numbers begin with 1, ie 10001, 10002 etc
Grade 2 = 75% = 20001, 20002, etc.
Grade 3 = 87.5% = 30001, etc.
All purebred cows begin with 4 = ie fullblood, graded-up, and imported = 40001, etc.
All bulls except the overseas bulls on the AI Accredited list begin with 8 = imported bulls, "purebred" sons of Grade 4 cows, homegrown fullblood bulls, two early-on Grade 4 bulls who were accepted as purebred before the bar was raised to 5th cross males equals pure, they all begin with 8 = 80001, etc

Cattle who have been assigned a limbo status, ie tranfered as having been sold but the new owner not yet having become a member = 90004 = DCAI non-member; 90001 = UK breeder; 90002 = US breeder; 90003 = Canadian breeder; ; 90005 = Danish breeder; ..... and more!

Data info is easily found within the DCAI database, anecdotal info is readily available from longer-term members at group meetings, and on forums.

[tarsallat]

Hey Jamboru, love your Australian website. Got so much information on it. Can look up all sorts of things on the pedigree database.
So, do you guys have a Dexter chat forum like this one in Australia? maybe if you do, you could point Lindon in that direction and she could get some information from an Australian forum.

[Deleted]

Jun 18, 2013 21:20:27 GMT -5 tarsallat said:

Hey Jamboru, love your Australian website. Got so much information on it. Can look up all sorts of things on the pedigree database.
So, do you guys have a Dexter chat forum like this one in Australia? maybe if you do, you could point Lindon in that direction and she could get some information from an Australian forum.

Thanks but no thanks to the one and only dexter forum I am aware of that is Australian-based

[Deleted]

Jun 18, 2013 19:53:10 GMT -5 jamboru said:

Sorry,I just have to make a correction for Au numbering system
Grade 1 = 50% = reg numbers begin with 1, ie 10001, 10002 etc
Grade 2 = 75% = 20001, 20002, etc.
Grade 3 = 87.5% = 30001, etc.
All purebred cows begin with 4 = ie fullblood, graded-up, and imported = 40001, etc.
All bulls except the overseas bulls on the AI Accredited list begin with 8 = imported bulls, "purebred" sons of Grade 4 cows, homegrown fullblood bulls, two early-on Grade 4 bulls who were accepted as purebred before the bar was raised to 5th cross males equals pure, they all begin with 8 = 80001, etc

Cattle who have been assigned a limbo status, ie tranfered as having been sold but the new owner not yet having become a member = 90004 = DCAI non-member; 90001 = UK breeder; 90002 = US breeder; 90003 = Canadian breeder; ; 90005 = Danish breeder; ..... and more!

Data info is easily found within the DCAI database, anecdotal info is readily available from longer-term members at group meetings, and on forums.

Yep just checked and the numbering system isnt going to help at all.

Those born in Australia but were imported embryos is what I am after

So this convo has gone off the tracks

[jamboru]

Jun 18, 2013 18:50:12 GMT -5 tarsallat said:

Love Australia and just love the people. They have good humor, and talk straight, don't tolerate BS or fools, say it as it is.

And we love you too!!
Dead right on the next bit, and we don't do "precious", but just where were you sitting when my 15yo was getting her second ear peircing for her birthday today??
That event required all of your qualifications.
Fran J.

[cddexter]

ahh, are you distinguishing between imported ambryos an embryos from imported? Both will be 'pure' according to your standards, and indistinguishable. c.

I see a post is missing. I'm still having trouble signing in every time, and getting some posts to hold. Sorry about the oversight re numbers. 1, 2 and 3 are upgrades, but as you say 8's are for purebred bulls. Those purebreds by the way include upgraded animals that have been through the AU system and qualify. Meadowpark Clive and Darcy are examples.

[Deleted]

Yes C I am trying to put a list together of those embryos imported into Australia so they will have been born here and received the same registration numbers as those born here too but from 'Australian' parents.

We also have a large listing of imported semen from over the years - which could / may have been used on the imported but born-here female embryos.

This is the list I am currently after. I'd like to check out if any of these Dexters have ever participated in the gradeup program [ancestors / descendants in their pedigree of gradeups] or not.

OH would like to import semen to 'freshen' lines but I would like to learn a whole lot more before we embark down that path so we can make the best decision possible.