Are Dexter color genetics unique? Mystery Solved!!!

[littlecowfl]

I have what I think is a Dexter cross (long story) but I sent her tail hairs off in an attempt to determine for sure and she came back ED/e b/b DUN animal, carries RED. Should I send more tail hairs in to double check what happened or give up and sell her as a cross? Are Dexter genetics unique? What do you guys think?

[Deleted]

Hi littlecowfl

These results wont provide the answers for you because they are only genetic codes for colour.


Ed is black
e states she is a carrier of red
b/b is she is homozygous for dun – so she must be dun in colour

You need to find her dam and find her sire (if possible) and send her tail hairs in with theirs for parent verification.
If one of the parents is not a dexter and she is parent verified against them – then she is a cross.

If both parents are Dexters, then she is not a cross.

And in your moo's defence - I have seen a couple of "Dexters" to which my eyebrows were seriously raised in response to being told they were registered Dexters!
[remember in Australia they cant be registered without parent verification from the Dexter gene pool database)

[carragheendexters]

No, ED, e, E+ colour genes are common across many breeds of cattle, except for dun, which as yet (as far as I know) has yet to be found in another breed, however, as far as I can see, there have not been that many breeds tested for Bb.
These genes are the common ones in Angus, Red Poll, Jersey, Red Angus etc, etc. Also these colour genes are not peculiar to cattle, but are found in many other species as well. You cannot tell a breed of cattle by its colour genetics.
The dun gene is found in many other species as well as our Dexter cattle. Bb genetics is found in dogs, such as in Labradors, Siberian Huskies, mice (chocolate mice) Chickens (chocolate brown leghorns) and has even been found in humans. So dun is actually quite a common colour gene, just maybe not in cattle, until many other breeds are tested, who knows?
Is she worth keeping? If you like her and want to keep her, just keep her as a crossbred for yourself. If you know who her parents are supposed to be, why not DNA them and her and see if you can parent verify her?
regards Louise
Sorry Donlin, you and I must have replied at the same time, re parent verifying.

[cddexter]

Alicia, to date, the only breed known to carry brown (little b at TYRP1, and what we call dun) is Dexters. Sheila Schmutz tested ALL the known not black, not red breeds (Highland, Galloway, Jersey, Brown Swiss, Murray Grey, Blonde, etc, etc.), and none of them carried little b. So, either you have a dexter x dexter, or you need to identify the non-dexter you think is the parent and have it tested to see if it carries b at TYRP1. if it does and you can prove it's not a dexter or doesn't have any dexter genes behind it, you will have advanced science a micron, and need to contact Sheila to let her know and include all your test results.

Depending on what one's stand is, you will find fanatics who say farms that have other breeds on them are either (a) dead honest and won't have even a whiff of any illicit crossing or mistakes and all their animals are 'pure', or (b) sneaky and dishonest or just plain dumb and have crosses they either know about but lied or aren't aware of.

Using this latter mentality, there is a move afoot in England to 'prove' our dun comes from crossing and illicit registration of dexters crossed with Red Poll. RP was chosen because there used to be a Suffolk Dun (polled brown small dual purpose) that was merged with Red Poll (and since dun is recessive to both E+ and e, there is no way to tell if any RP's carry little d at TYRP1 without testing--and testing--until one is found (if one is found)). One of the early primary dexter breeders bred dexters, red polls and jerseys. The breeder was known to cross with jerseys occasionally to 'break the cycle' of a dexter cow who had too many bulldogs when bred consistently with a dexter, but these were never registered (as confirmed by John Tuckey of the Doesmead herd, during a taped conversation in 1988. When she died, her son ran the dexters for a few more years, and reported four crosses with red poll, but these offspring were never registered either. (England requires all births to be reported.)

Of course, even if they find TYRP! b in a Red Poll, it's not conclusive that Red Poll is the source. Since Suffolk Dun was a small dual purpose breed, and early Dexters were anything with dwarf genes, it's just as possible (or maybe even more so) that some SD genetics were included in the foundation Dexters. At this remove we'll never know.

Using herd book data 60 years after the fact, this 'research' is attempting to use the reporting of these crosses as proof the brown gene came into dexters from this line, from calves that were misregistered as pure dexter. The Red Poll hb is also being checked to see if any RP x dexter matings are reported there.

What's going on is what's known as 'applied research', as opposed to 'pure research'. The difference is in the former, there is a goal in mind, and the researcher tries to fit the facts to the preferred outcome. In the latter, there is no preferred outcome, the results are simply that, and the chips fall wherever.

I know you already know some of this, but others reading your thread might not be as aware, so I've tried to cover the bases for them. Cheers, c.

[littlecowfl]

Thank you, guys. I tested her against any possible bull, including the intended AI bull, but all possible sires were eliminated. It appears that my AI tech mixed up a Limousin bull straw with a Dexter bull straw (at least that's what we think happened). So, we have a lovely Dexter looking dun colored heifer with slightly larger bones and a big butt. As disappointing as it is that she isn't worth what a purebred Dexter would be, I can't help feeling more sorry for the Limousin breeder who is probably scratching his head and wondering why he has such a cute little cow in his herd!

Let me post a picture of her. She was tamed, just like all our babies, and will make someone a nice pet cow.

[littlecowfl]

She MUST be crossbred. Look at those legs of hers. The bone is as thick as our bull's (behind her) and she is only 17 months old!

[lakeportfarms]

I'd agree some type of crossbreed...she just doesn't have a Dexter look to her. As you said pretty heavy boned. And her face, nose and ears look a bit off but maybe that's just the photo.

I'm wondering...how large was she when she was born? Fortunately the mixup (if that's what it was) didn't result in calving problems!

[littlecowfl]

She was about 52 pounds and born to a heifer. Thank goodness she wasn't a big baby! Her ears have this weird curl to them. Must be a Limousin thing?

[carragheendexters]

Hi Littlecowl,
limousin cross dexter is a great cross. One breeder in Australia used that cross in a hoof and hook competition and the carcase won Grand
Champion carcase at a large show. It has the best of the 2 breeds, the muscle of the limo and the meat quality of the Dexter. We have a limo/angus crossed with Dexter and she doesn't look like that. She has heavy bones and well muscled. I would have expected your girl to have more muscling and a heavier bone than she has. Also another trait of limos are upright pasterns and feet, which she doesn't appear to have from the photo. How does her size compare to other heifers her age. I would expect her at 17mths to be a reasonable size by now.
The different ear thing, not trying to pick or disparage your girl, just pointing out what it looks like from the photo, she appears to have crop ears, which can be a Dexter thing. Highlanders are also known to have it, and I think there may be one or 2 other breeds that it has been seen in. It is a dominant trait, so if she does have crop ears and her mother definitely doesn't, look to a bull with crop ears as the father.
Regardless, she will make a great little breeder for meat, if not for yourself then for someone else looking for quiet little cow.
regards Louise

[carragheendexters]

Hi carol,
I love reading all this information about the history of cattle and especially Dexters. It really is enlightening and educational. Red Polls were used by some in Australia (and also maybe in NZ, not sure about that, will have to ask Margaret Weir about that one) in their breeding up program, to introduce polling and red into their herds, so if possibly some Red Polls do carry dun, then maybe these breeders may also have introduced dun ?
Yes, for sure, research can be skewed to prove a point, as can statistics, there will always be those in the Dexter world trying to prove their point, whether it is correct or even important in the grand scheme of things.
Please keep posting this sort of information, I love it.
regards Louise

[cddexter]

Looking closely I think I have to agree about the crop ears. She also seems to have a poor hormone balance. Alec Meads in NZ used Red Poll as his cross of choice. cheers, c.

[littlecowfl]

First of all, it's not my bull. It's an AI bull. The WRONG AI bull. There is nothing wrong with the dam's ears or her sire's or her dam's.

It is exactly like crop ears in Highland cattle. In fact, with her low birth weight, I wonder if she's part Highland.

Also, crop ears is not a dominant trait. It's incomplete dominance.

cc = normal ears

Cc = varying degrees of crop ears (my heifer)

CC= crop ears

I have no idea how a hormone imbalance can be determined from a picture of a crossbred heifer. Especially with no knowledge of her environment. Florida is one of the hardest regions in the country to raise cattle. We have unique challenges not well understood outside of our state. The fact that Dexters outperform some of the Brangus is remarkable. Brahma crosses tend to dominate down here.

[cddexter]

whoa, Alicia. No one is criticizing your animals, or accusing you of anything. Do Highland crop ears look different from other breed crop ears? I don't have any experience with them, just know they are found in Dexters, and can be anywhere from a tiny nick to most of the ear missing.

Is there any way you can find out for sure what straw the tech used? I sent you a private message, hope you find the time to reply. cheers, c.

[carragheendexters]

Hi Littlecowfl,
the plot thickens. So if her mother is horned and doesn't have crop ears, then the father must be polled and have crop ears. You could get the dun colouration from a Highlander, different gene to Dexter dun but looks a similar colour, and I think that it is dominant over black, could be wrong though. Wouldn't the heifer be horned though? I thought all Highlanders were homozygous for horns?
Is it possible that there were other Dexter bull straws in the tank that the AI Tech used by mistake? A polled, cropped eared, dun or dun carrying bull?
What about Galloway? That would give polled, ? do Galloways also have crop ears, maybe? and dun. Actually come to think of it, I think Galloway dun is the one that is dominant over black, it is the dilution gene that makes black appear dun, homozygous form gives a silver dun look. This would also give you the low birth weight. Regardless, Galloway or Highlander cross would still be a nice cross, and both of these crosses would have a good temperament, (compared to a Limo cross)
Sorry if I offended you in my mentioning the crop ears, it was just that you wrote that she had a funny curl to them that may be a Limo thing, I thought that maybe you hadn't noticed that they looked like crop ears.
regards Louise

[littlecowfl]

Hard to read tone on the internet. Sorry if I read the message from Carol as a bit strong.

Do they even have polled Highlands? Maybe she's a red polled after all, because she never did need to be dehorned. She's not from a Dexter. I'm sure of that. It really sucks because I clearly remember checking the straw, but we did two cows that day, so maybe my memory is of checking one and not the other? I will keep the straws if I ever do this AI thing again. I will also use a different tech. I have heard some things since this all came out and, well, I will use a different tech. No way to find out where the Dexter bull semen went. I was hoping for a heifer to keep in my herd and breed to my bull, if she was good enough, but no such luck.

I mentioned the harshness of the environment down here because I am still startled by how hard it is to get everything right here. We are unusually harsh, even for Florida. I worked on ranches out west and kept my own cattle in Virginia. I do miss the ease at which you could keep things in balance in both of those regions. No matter how good our grass grows, we will never worry about grass tetany or bloat here. Brahmas and Cracker cattle do well, but they just aren't for me, LOL!