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Post by sleepyowl on Jul 13, 2013 22:12:30 GMT -5
Hi,
I notice that some heifers and cows have extra skin on their bellies, a lot like a bull would, and at first glance, they look like a steer. Does anyone know why this happens, and is it undesirable, or does it not matter?
I just find it odd that some are smooth, and some are not, and was wondering if it was an issue.
Thanks!
Laura
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Post by cddexter on Jul 13, 2013 23:08:16 GMT -5
It's pretty common in Dexters. If you can find animals without it, all the better. Most of the time it's just a flap of skin, and only unsightly. Sometimes it's an actual hernia, which is NOT good. cheers, c.
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Post by karenp on Jul 14, 2013 4:24:24 GMT -5
belly button ?
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Post by Deleted on Jul 14, 2013 16:29:46 GMT -5
Yes we have a 6 yr old girl with what you are describing. We thought a hernia but after checking it isnt - its just 'skin' sort of thing. I had put it down to a rough birth maybe like Karenp said, a belly button from more than the usual tug during the birthing process?  ? |
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Post by ian on Jul 14, 2013 22:38:42 GMT -5
Hi  I believe that this may be the reason we are getting too many bulls with a loose pissle, which is not good and maybe we should consider not breeding stud stock from these animals. Just my thoughts. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 14, 2013 23:00:58 GMT -5
Hi I believe that this may be the reason we are getting too many bulls with a loose pissle, which is not good and maybe we should consider not breeding stud stock from these animals. Just my thoughts. More times than not, it is more likely an umbilical hernia and Im not sure if there is any way of testing to see if it is an actual weakness of the muscles or it was the result of a rough birthing process either? And we personally don’t agree with you on the not breeding aspect Ian. We wouldn’t turn away from a bull, or a cow if this was the only ‘undesirable’ especially of the Dexter had strengths in aspects which are hard to obtain or hold onto. But we wouldn’t ignore this either. It would have to be listed as an area for improvement within a well-planned breeding program. Maybe we have been spoilt - we received this point of view from two of our breeders who we purchased from. They were happy to let us know what they were breeding towards and how, the weaknesses, what they had found over the years etc, and both noted not to disregard an animal in a breeding program because of an undesirable when there are so many aspects to consider. But in saying all that - I do understand what you meant by your statement. |
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Post by ian on Jul 15, 2013 2:15:37 GMT -5
Hi I can go along with breeding with such a female as long as you try to improve by using a bull that is tight in the pissle. But I would never breed from a bull that is loose in the pissle and have it passed through a whole generation of male and females that is a backward step. |
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Post by midhilldexters on Jul 15, 2013 3:01:33 GMT -5
I believe that this may be the reason we are getting too many bulls with a loose pissle, which is not good and maybe we should consider not breeding stud stock from these animals. Just my thoughts. I agree with Ian. The majority of times it has nothing to do with a hernia. Most breeders seem to think its normal, I think it's like a loose sheath, breeders not knowing and just breeding and now its the norm. Not sure its that easy to get rid of either. I would never buy a bull with loose sheath, but you see so many of them advertised. Carol K |
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Post by Olga on Jul 15, 2013 8:18:12 GMT -5
Im not sure if there is any way of testing to see if it is an actual weakness of the muscles or it was the result of a rough birthing process either? I've never heard before that loose skin on the belly related to "rough birthing process" before. But if it is a possibility, I would select for those lines that don't have a "rough birthing process". Just my 2 cents. |
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Post by cddexter on Jul 15, 2013 8:28:14 GMT -5
penis attachment is very important because it's what holds the penis in the right place for breeding. A loose sheath means the penis is pointing too far 'down'. When the bull mounts, the penis is NOT held at the mouth of the vagina, it's below, and he has to jiggle and squiggle around to get it in the right place. In the meantime, he's probably become so excited he's ejaculated onto the side of the cow or the back of her bag, and then has to start over. Ian's right.
Also, in rough bush, a sloppy sheath can get snagged and ripped. Doesn't happen with a tight sheath. Just one more reason...
And, Carol's right, too. Because a lot of Dexter breeders simply don't know, they think it doesn't matter, or don't even notice it, and it's become a lot more common. If everything else is excellent, well, okay, but either don't breed him to cows with a similar fault, or cull heavily against that trait. If the bull is only 'good', AND has a loose pizzle, I'd pass it by.
Sorry Donna, it's all about breeding for quality. The poorer the cows, the more important it is to have an outstanding bull, to fix faults--not add to them. If the cows are of good quality, why use a bull that's going to pull them down.
Olga: this is a new one on me. Especially since Dexters are known for their ease of calving. There are always exceptions, and not every single birth is 'easy'. However, this sounds more like a really creative excuse--either deliberate or just through ignorance.
cheers, c.
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Post by sleepyowl on Jul 15, 2013 9:56:07 GMT -5
Thank you for all your replies! I didn't think that it was normal (or should be normal). I guess it seems to be a minor fault, so if a cow was a great cow, I would still breed her, and watch her offspring. If it is one more check on a list of checks against her, then it would be time to cull (depending on the list, etc.)
I agree about culling a bull with a problem like that though. I think you have to be a lot more picky with a bull, as it would be a lot harder to fix any problems he brings into your herd.
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Post by sleepyowl on Jul 15, 2013 16:02:24 GMT -5
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Post by Deleted on Jul 15, 2013 16:20:16 GMT -5
Sorry Donna, it's all about breeding for quality. The poorer the cows, the more important it is to have an outstanding bull, to fix faults--not add to them. If the cows are of good quality, why use a bull that's going to pull them down. Hi C, dont apologise. This discussion is great. Just because we have one point of view, reading others points of views with a reason helps us, me, work through the original logic of it all. And you have a good point too Olga: this is a new one on me. Especially since Dexters are known for their ease of calving. There are always exceptions, and not every single birth is 'easy'. However, this sounds more like a really creative excuse--either deliberate or just through ignorance. Mmmm not really ignorance or an excuse. There are many factors at play. A rough birth is not a troubled birth and I should have probably used a different term. Position of the placenta and the length of the cord can play a part in an umbilical hernia during the birthing process as does the abdominal wall and whether this has closed before labour began or was destined to close soon after birth. And Im happy to say our 6yr old girl has not passed the "lump around the belly button" onto her heifer who is 11mths old - which is a good thing for us and our breeding program |
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Post by ian on Jul 15, 2013 17:00:14 GMT -5
This is a not the same problem, this is a bos indicus breed where a loose sheath is the norm. Look at the position of vulva on this animal it much lower than in a bos taurus breed a dexter bull would have problems breeding this cow his aim would be too high but he would get the job done having spent a lot of time and energy doing it. |
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Post by sleepyowl on Jul 15, 2013 17:01:24 GMT -5
I have seen pictures of dexters with skin like that though, not a much, but the same type of thing.
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