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Post by carragheendexters on Jul 22, 2013 8:03:57 GMT -5
Hi Mike (Gorignak), so I'm just wondering if your DDG is the same as what we call DDG, the by-product from ethanol production. We are able to purchase it very cheaply in a syrup form, $60 for 1000litres. High protein, high carb, but also high lactic acid. We have to feed carefully at first because of the lactic acid, but the cows love it. With our syrup there is anecdotal evidence that it eats away the cattle's teeth, it's so acid. I have seen a steer who had hardly anything left of his teeth, he had been on a high quantity of syrup to prepare for a hoof and hook competition. Is this the same thing you are talking about? regards Louise
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Post by lakeportfarms on Jul 22, 2013 8:19:03 GMT -5
Mike, I don't know about your neighbor and his cows, but there is a difference between show animals and regular cattle. And keeping your Dexters in "show" condition all the time is not necessarily healthy, as Rezz said in an earlier post. Just as being overweight isn't the best for us humans, being overweight isn't the best for your cows. It can lead to conception and calving problems in particular. Most of our cows breed back two months following calving. The only cows we've ever had trouble getting bred were ones that we had purchased and they were well fed, fatter than any of our cows. One of the reasons they were sold is because the prior owner couldn't get them bred. Eventually, following the diet that we put them on with a gradual weight loss, they were successfully bred.
I'd rather have cows that don't require much or any supplementation. We've found it takes at least a couple or three years to get them to transition to doing well with forage only. No doubt our managed grazing has helped, and some never really make the transition, but they do at least improve. For example, we have a cow that a few years ago we had to wean a calf at 4 months to keep her condition, she lost it so quickly after calving. Before we purchased her, she was supplemented and grained and looked beautiful. But we refused to start pouring grain or supplementing her ourselves, and for a couple years it took a lot of willpower to watch her condition slip following calving. 4 years later, she now has a large 5 month old steer on her, and is fat on pasture only. We'll probably keep the steer on her longer than 7 months she keeps her condition so well, and if we took him off early she'd get so fat it would be hard on her during her next calving. We have a number of other cows that have had similar results.
Frankly, they are better off for us having done so, even though the transition was probably a little bit hard on them. You could come in our pasture and probably pick out the cows that we have recently acquired and are going through the same process of adapting to our way of feeding, vs. the ones who have been on our property the longest period of time and have made the transition well. In my opinion, constant supplementation is like a vicious circle. My goal was to break the vicious circle while having a healthy herd.
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Post by dexterfarm on Jul 22, 2013 13:09:47 GMT -5
I dont supplement other than an ocasional small treat of corn and oats. but it is a small amount. The ones I am milking do get just a little corn and oats each day not for condition but as an incentive to go in the stanchion all on their own. They get trace mineral blocks year round.
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Gorignak
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Post by Gorignak on Jul 23, 2013 13:25:50 GMT -5
Gene is getting close. I don't have cattle in "Show" shape...... I am hard put to keep them in satisfactory shape. Fat and Slick in Arkansas is a BCS of about 5.5-6. Learn the BCS scoring system, it facilitates discussion. When I moved to Arkansas in 1973, almost every herd was a BCS of 3.5 - 4, average. Now, the auctions have forced the locals to learn, and the herds approach 5. Last year, I fed 2 of the cheaper 24% Tractor Supply tubs, and 2 of the 27% Crystalyx tubs..... $54. and $109. respectively, each.
The DDG we get is yellow powder. I have never seen the liquid, and I'm going to check on the lactic acid levels in the dry. CORRECTION to your statement....It is not high in Carbohydrates....they are all turned to ethanol and CO2 1 Bushel Corn = 2.5 gal ethanol, 20 +/- lbs of dry DDG, and 14 lbs of Carbon Dioxide....LIKE THAT I DON"T....Just think of 14 lbs of dry ice.....ENVIRONMENTALLY FRIENDLY ?!!!!! NOT!!!!! ( pulled those figures out of my memory....subject to a little adjustment, but pretty accurate. ) DDG is here to stay....so use it wisely if you supplement. It has some unique qualities that make it an almost ideal supplement. Google up some of the papers on its use in dairies and in pasture feeding formats. My chicken feed gets 300 Lbs of DDG / ton and my hog feed gets 450 Lbs of it per ton in the summer, and 200 lbs of it in the winter....need a bit more "heat" energy in the winter. DDG is 27% protein......but low "ënergy".
Folks.....that advice was to an Arkie...... Mike.....I'll take 4 boxcars of your dirt and MAYBE I can grow a decent garden. Here is how it is....Everywhere else I have lived, you could plunk a Forsythia Bush in the ground, and have a uncontrolled mass of expanding plant in 3 years....I killed a dozen forsythias before I realized what I had to do here. Wherever I build, I carefully scrape the "topsoil" into a pile....4" of light yellow/brown dirt. Then, when I want to plant a bush or tree...I backhoe a 3 X 3 X 3 hole and fill it with topsoil..... When I am digging with my trencher....a 5" X 48" deep trenching chain .....I progress at the rate of 1'- 2' per minute !!! IN THE BEST SOIL.....OUCH.
To get and keep my cows near a BCS of 6, I have to supplement both the low quality pasture and the low quality hay. A BCS of 6 is not "show" fit....it is "well managed herd" fit.....Hans, I can't begin to explain the envy I have at the lush deep grass your cattle stand in. I don't have a cow, at her best, who looks like yours at their worst. Low TDN and protein in our forage guarantee that.
I've only had cattle a year...I've dealt with cattlemen on a daily basis for 40 years....I've seen LOTS of mistakes, and grudging acceptance of "newfangled"products......
I am trying desperately to evolve to a total forage based system......6 Boer/Kiko cross goats arrived last week to begin the stripping of the brush.....that number will reach 50-70 in 3 years. I am VERY interested in Serecia Lespedeza as a base for my pastures....tough, durable and tenacious, it is a legume with a HIGH TANNIN CONTENT that worms livestock effectively without synthetics. Mark my words.....you will see serecia lespedeza cubes and pellets within 5 years, aimed at the forage based producer who wants a "natural"worm control agent. If you have good soil, and good pasture....supplementation should not be necessary.
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Post by Olga on Jul 23, 2013 22:05:38 GMT -5
Hans, I think most of us here in AR aren't rich enough to keep cattle in "show shape", lol. We go for "healthy" looking: no sharp angles and glossy coat. But there is a special type of farmer around who'd kept a herd for years, who sell their calf crop and try to put in minimum time and effort into their herds. I am over an hour away from where Mike is, but I have this type of farmer here too - there are 2 herds within 5 miles of my house. These herds aren't overly large (less than 100 heads) but they are always on the same pasture. There is no rotation, and in a hard year - like the last 3 we've head - the grass deteriorates down to nothing. You see the herd suffering through the winter, stealing bites of dead grass out of the mud; you see hay brought in not nearly often enough, not nearly enough for the number of heads. Then spring comes and the grass comes out - the hungry mama cows keep it low. Then they have calves. As the summer goes, the herd and the pasture look worse and worse. My good friend are neighbors with one of these minimum-farmers. They drive by his pasture every day and every time see cows that are mere skeletons. Not a year goes by without a dead cow laying not far from the fence. Just a few weeks ago, my friend asked for permission to walk the neighbor's field, looking for a dog that took off during a bad storm. He said that in the wooded area he came upon remains of several cows, 5 or 6. All of them were fresh, from this summer. There were many old bones there too, left from previous seasons. As Mike said, the calves don't look terrible when they are collected and taken to the sale - but their mamas never look far from death. This is a sad reality of AR. And the fact is that even the police think it's OK. After I reported a down cow once, left to die from dehydration and starvation over a period of a week, right next to the highway, this is what the officer told me, "They've been farming a long time. They know what they are doing". Who can argue with that?..
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Post by Gorignak on Jul 24, 2013 6:24:34 GMT -5
Oh Boy, Olga....I was trying to spare the "flatlanders" the gory details. It's all there, folks. Olga's description is spot on. BUT, it is not just isolated here-and-there farms. 40 years ago, that was the description that fit 85%-90% of ALL cattle ranch/farms in the Ozarks. The topsoil erodes fast off of 8%+ slopes, and when the virgin timber was cut, there was a 20 year feast of harvest from the deep woods soil.....then, total devastation. Things have improved, and now, less than 40% of the farms have cattle in that condition. Rotational grazing would help a lot....This is the reason I cut my timber and didn't bulldoze it and then cut it....bulldozing destroys the little starter skim of topsoil that is there to get the first toehold of grass in.
In between us and the black soils of Hans or Mike are a variety of mediocre to poor growing climates. Our friends in Oklahoma and Texas know what we are talking about.....A REAL LAUGH is looking at the yearly rainfall for Arkansas....sure, we get 40" of rain. It is either all at once, or at the wrong time, and runs off.
SO, RATHER THAN TRYING TO CONDESCEND TO THOSE WHO ARE SUPPLEMENTING, IT WOULD SERVE THE CATTLE'S BEST INTEREST TO GENERATE POSITIVE SPIN ON BODY CONDITION EVALUATION...BCS SCORES. If everyone discussed BCS scores, then those that had deteriorating situations could easily pinpoint and remedy the problems. This is one of my "soon to be posted"..."one year anniversary" 10 Commandments (there's probably only 4 or 5 ) of Dexter Ownership. The pasture/feed situation is general to all cattle. Dexters are unique in the fact that with each sale to a "newbie" , novice, comes the much abused statement...." They can survive on pasture that no other cow can.....They can live on next to nothing......They are from stock that survived on rough barren ground".
THEY CAN'T SURVIVE UN-SUPPLEMENTED IN ARKANSAS. But, we are doing all in our power to change that by example. Let me add...there is a HUGE difference between a bucket of 12% sweet feed and a bucket of 16% "pasture balancer" cubes. The first is destroying the rumen's ability to process cellulose....the latter is providing the rumen bacteria and chemistry with ingredients that fortify and enable digestion of even poorer grades of hay. That is what the tubs do. DO NOT FEED CORN...... Learn the chemistry of cattle digestion and work WITH it rather than against it.
Hey Olga.....did you like that heat and humidity yesterday !!! It was 98 degrees and a dew point of 77....Real feel temp was 107, and we were sweating bullets. Changed my clothes 3X trying to get something done. Got 2" of DESPERATELY needed rain. It was the first since May 10....we were on the verge of total burn out. Now, the Bermuda has popped right back up and it looks fairly nice. Better today, we have to move and cover hay bales.....
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Post by carragheendexters on Jul 24, 2013 7:22:56 GMT -5
Hi Mike, I think our DDG formulation must be different to yours. Our DDG is a thick syrup, dark brown , and looks a lot like molasses. I am thinking that ours is the raw product without processing. It smells a lot like our Vegemite, very yeasty smelling, and tastes foul, though the cattle love it and they become addicted to it. I got out the data sheets to compare and ours are different to yours. All as dry matter, protein 20-21%, fat 7-8% and non-fibre carbohydrate 70%, carb made up of 16% starch, 16% sugar, and 38% fermentation acids, mainly lactic acid. It is a good supplement, and with a form of roughage keeps them in good condition. we would feed about 5 litres per(about a gallon) cow each day. We can't compare BCS with you guys as our system is different, only 1 (literally a skeleton), to 5 (so obese that never see a cow that fat). We aim to keep our cows at 2+ to 3+ our scoring system) depending the time of year and steers for sale at least 3+. Show cattle about a 4- to 4+ I understand where you're coming from re trying to farm in trying conditions. Our inland property is in a summer dry area. We have fantastic fertile soil, just little rain. If we didn't handfeed our cows in summer they would have to live on dust. We are just coming out of a very dry time, no rain for nearly 8 months, and so far this year we've had nearly 9 inches of rain nearly all in the last 8 weeks, Our average yearly rain is 20 inches. When trying to farm in difficult environments you just have to do what you have to do to keep going. Even though we have some pasture coming on, we still feed a large round of good hay each week and about 60kg (130lb) of high protein pellets each week for the small herd. They get about a kg each per day, plus mineral licks, depending which one on the season. We're hoping for more rain to come and a good late winter and spring season to make some hay and get some good standing feed in the paddocks to get us through next summer. Something we learnt long ago, every area is different with it's own unique good points and short comings, and you just have to make the best of what you've got, and do what you have to do. regards Louise .
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Post by rezzfullacres on Jul 24, 2013 8:16:00 GMT -5
Cutting through all the chatter the simple fact is you are going to have to figure out what your winter feed is lacking, if anything, and provide that to your cattle. There are many ways to supplement but only you know what will work for you. Every farm is different and every herd has needs that have to be fullfilled and that is the farmers job, do what you have to do. We have used lick tanks, protein tubs, protein blocks and various forms of feed to supplement at various points through the years. The lick tanks were the easiest, set a tank get it filled get on a program to keep it filled, the feeds are the most labor intensive. Sweet feed is fine for your cattle as long as you keep the amount fed to 1% of the body weight or less, we use it as a method to keep our cattle coming into the lot so we can get a closer look at them and check them over. It is more of a bribe than a supplement but it works for us and the cattle. Go to your local feed store and see what they have, than go to the next feed store see what they have, compare labels and make an informed decision......If you find something that you think will work for you make sure you get it in front of the herd before they need it. It is much easier to maintain than to build back up....Good luck to you
RFA
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Post by jdcarnathan on Jul 26, 2013 6:11:57 GMT -5
Thanks again everyone. I live prolly within 6 miles of Olga, and up on our mountain I have a good friend. Great guy that would do anything with you and has been a cattleman for years, who has a poor looking herd. Only about 20 head, but the calves look healthy, as does his bull, but the mama cows look like a malnourished dairy cow if that makes sense. He supplements but obviously not enough. Also Mike, the weather down here hasnt been horrible, a couple hot days, a little rain, and now today we are supposed to get some good rain with a high of 73ish. I am excited about this, hopefully that bermuda will shoot straight up. Once again thanks everyone for your input, lots of good info to let sink in.
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Post by Cascade Meadows Farm - Kirk on Jul 28, 2013 20:00:35 GMT -5
Our cows get NO supplementation (other than a very good mineral mix), but they do get good clover-rich pasture in growing season, and good hay in winter. If your hay is poor, you may need to supplement, but it is VERY IMPORTANT that you NOT overdo the supplementation, because it will hide any genetic weaknesses in your cattle.
For many years, we have culled any animals on our farm that can't maintain good condition, especially when the other animals in the herd are doing ok, and it has paid off for us. Culling out the weaker members of the herd will help you keep your genetics tuned to your local conditions and local hay. If you supplement the poor doers, they may look terrific (but will pass on their weak genes to their offspring).
If your entire herd is getting too skinny, then supplementation may be the best idea, but if only one or two animals are skinny (with no good excuse), then cull those poor-doers rather than giving them extra snacks.
By keeping supplementation to a minimum, and by CULLING (and eating) any weaker/skinny animals, over time you will create well-tuned genetics that can thrive with less than perfect nutrition.
PS. The best way to improve pasture in many areas, is to add clover, especially white clover, and also to soil-test and amend the soil as necessary.
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