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Post by dexterfarm on Aug 6, 2013 10:38:23 GMT -5
This is my fly control Dominique chickens. They have done a good job with the manure piles but this is the first year they have started taking the flyes directly from the cows. It is only this years young roosters doing this. They will follow the cows any where, and the cows could not be happier about it. Unfortunatly some have followed the cows to far out and then not stayed with them. Last week I lost 4 2 month old roosters in the middle of one day. So for now the young ones are locked up until they get some more age and rooster instinks to protect. Our older rooster does a very good job at protecting his hens but these young roosters go off on their own and he does not know or care that they are not with the flock. The cows and chickens seem to have worked out a deal even our kickest cow will stand rock solid while they walk all around there legs pecking flys. I have watched a cow lower her head so they could reach the flys on her forhead. I have seen a chicken jump up and take a fly from there nose. But the last one I could not believe. A calf who would close one eye put his head down to the chicken and let it peck the flyes from around the eye. Then turn his head and close his other eye. The chicken must have excelent persision he never jumped or moved even a little.
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Gorignak
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Post by Gorignak on Aug 6, 2013 18:44:43 GMT -5
CLASSIC, Mike. Great picture. My chickens, mostly banties, are all over the cows when they are laying down.
For all you "modern" farmers....in 20 years, IPM will be the norm, not the outlier.....My favorite was old Earl Butz...."Get BIG, or get out". Roundup doesn't work.....the rest of the world won't buy our grain (excuse me, China will), and the honeybees are GONE...don't get me started.
Okay....I'm now going to have to admit.....I have a problem......a problem with a phrase that I should use right now to involve the uninitiated, and remind all of the knowledgeable to redouble their effort and build a couple of good.....(here goes) CHICKEN TRACTORS.... So, every time I think those two words....a little voice asks..., "are they driving the tractor, or powering the tractor?"....and then an image of a half dozen hens peddling a gearbox inside a Farmall M tractor appears.....and a big old rooster in a straw hat is crowing out orders from the seat.....and the forward progress of my thoughts devolves into...
SO....we should all Google up some of the latest " movable, pastured poultry hotels ".....and go from there. If you are lucky enough to have a processing facility that handles poultry (we do, $2.50/bird), you can find a market for your fly-fed birds the same place your beef goes....anyway, it's a long story. It does, however, work. You ain't raising Dexters to be a Beef Cattle Baron....you are already halfway to becoming a "gawddam hippie" with your little cows.....you're just headed the same place, from a different direction.
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Post by legendrockranch on Aug 6, 2013 23:51:19 GMT -5
Below are a couple of pictures of a yearling bull I sold several years back. The new owner sent me pictures of the bulls best buddy killing horse flies off of the bulls back. How's that for fly control Barb Edited to add, pictures courtesy of the Martin Family, in El Paso, Arkansas
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Post by rezzfullacres on Aug 7, 2013 7:21:22 GMT -5
SO....we should all Google up some of the latest " movable, pastured poultry hotels ".....and go from there. If you are lucky enough to have a processing facility that handles poultry (we do, $2.50/bird),
If you are going to market your birds why would you pay someone to process your birds? Unless you are processing over 1,000 / 20,000 birds a year you are legally allowed to process your own for resale...You would fall under one of the USDA poultry exemptions, there are several of them..Some states do make you jump through some additional hoops but not many... You are allowed to slaughter and process and directly sell your product with no need to use anyone else. You are also allowed to do "further processing" which is a very broad term. We have found a pretty good market for chicken sausage.... We have processed and sold 250 chickens this year and have 75 more to process next weekend. The free ranging manure scatterers are what we make the sausage out of.....We have about 50 of them running around at any point.......
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Post by lavacaw on Aug 7, 2013 8:25:40 GMT -5
Most of us want to put the birds in our own freezer without the hassle of having to process them...Not looking to sell them.
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Gorignak
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Post by Gorignak on Aug 7, 2013 13:26:33 GMT -5
I put up 200-300 for ourselves....like Howlin' Wolf said, "....I eats more chicken any man ever seen"....I don't think he was singing about the same thing.... Anyway, we process several hundred. I do not, however, want to donate my farm to some litigious urbanette who gets sick off one of my poultry products.You have to carry 1Million in liability to sell self-processed meat around here. So, batches of 100 go to a USDA processor.....Live birds go in.....$2.50/bird....vacuum packed, flash frozen packs come out....in any configuration we want.....thighs, drumsticks, breasts, or whole birds, or cut up singles....ALL USDA labeled and stamped and the weight recorded on the pack. We can sell them anywhere, ANY STATE, in the good old USA. The processor also is mindful of the current trend to less "chemical" involvement....THEY USE NO CHLORINE, ONLY VINEGAR through the entire process. We can do "organic"...."natural"....or "GMO free" and maintain the integrity of the label through the process.. PLUS....most of the people that I sell 100 birds or chicks to, will work at WalMart.....be a lawyer.....any one of a hundred professions that precludes them from processing birds.....but enables them to buy an education that opens their mental doors to the concept of "local" grown...."slow food" and "free of antibiotics and hormones". YOU ALL WOULD BE SURPRISED AT THE NUMBER OF PEOPLE WHO WORK FOR TYSON'S....WHO WON'T EAT THEIR CHICKEN. I sell to dozens and dozens of them.
Looking at the whole picture.......$2.50/6-7lb bird is a small part of the cost to a family that is going to the local "Natural Foods" boutique store and paying up to $25. for the same bird. And......if I get in a jam.....$250. +fuel is not that much to get back 600 lbs of frozen, professionally cut up chicken.
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Post by jdcarnathan on Aug 7, 2013 15:21:37 GMT -5
Do you free range all of your chickens Mike? I know this off topic but I would like to talk to you about some of your process. If I am out of line on this you can message me if you feel like it.
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Post by wvdexters on Aug 7, 2013 18:09:22 GMT -5
Well, sounds like we are on target here. The chicks in the hen house are growing. They are almost big enough to begin letting out to forage and explore. We're doing a bit of an experiment here. I ordered 3 different breeds. Each bringing something different to the party with increasing levels of "predator proofness" (if that is even a word). Dominiques, brown leghorns and the original chicken Red Jungle Fowl (interesting little birds - pheasant like and great fliers). I am hoping some/most will be able to evade the hawks, coyotes and that the best will breed into a good little farm chicken for fresh eggs, bug control, and meat on occasion. I have to say I have enjoyed hearing the adolescent penis-a-doodle-doos coming from the barnyard. The 3 guinees, well we started with 6 but black snakes cut the number in half; are ready to go into their outside run. The door is open but they haven't worked up the courage to venture out yet. Someone will get brave soon and they'll get to work. The pond will come next year I hope. And with it the ducks. Good idea about the crows. I am considering the corn solution. Sounds right. They are huge and everywhere! If I can get them to work for me instead of against, I am all for it. Besides, they definitely owe me one for all the corn seedlings that "disappeared" this spring. Dung beetles- I need to check into this.
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Gorignak
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Post by Gorignak on Aug 7, 2013 18:41:57 GMT -5
Our current coop is 15 x 20......kinda hard to keep more than 100-125 birds in it. We have a couple other smaller sheds outfitted for 6-8 week and 12-16 week pullets....most of our sales birds move through them. At any one time, we will have 200 birds maturing, a core of 40 breeders/layers....and about 200-400 chicks, fresh out of the incubators. We try and keep them moving through Craigslist as quick as possible. The best year, we hatched about 4000 chicks, and sold them for $1.50 each. The chickens get up on roosts at night, so we can have 30-60 Muscovy duck layers on the floor, if we control the roosts so the chickens don't poop on them. We will be completing a new 20 x 40 coop with multiple divided pens for pen-mating birds this fall.
EVERYBODY gets let out in the morning....with just a minimum feeding. The coops are in the center of our 10-12 acres of "open" ground....and the chickens move through about another 15 acre circle of woods. Our house, shop, barns, gardens, and orchards are directly in the center of a square quarter-section. If a person owns a long thin piece of land, the rules change. We do the main feeding in the afternoon....about 4 PM to help gather and survey the flock. our feed is a very high protein....21%+. I can send anyone the formula. We grind it extra fine and put 2-3 lb coffee cans of it in a 5 gal bucket, then pour BOILING water over it, stir, and let set until the next day. It swells to fill the bucket....the chickens can eat it faster and without choking.
We would routinely have losses that were catastrophic....35 Wyandotte hens, just beginning to lay, in 3 days........50, 12 week old pullets in one night. Our three Pyrenees are in complete control...NOT A SINGLE loss in 3.5 years now. Snakes, foxes, 'coons, 'possums, striped skunks, spotted skunks, bobcats, coyotes, weasels, DOGS !!!, have all had their fun with us....so have the hawks and owls, but I bear THEM no ill will....our crows use them as party material. Our personal flock of crows keeps all raptors at bay...... We do not have "chicken tractors" yet ... but, as soon as one learns how to operate the clutch......okay, back on track....As soon as we open up the 80 acres that we are fencing, the portable housing will be critical...IGNORE the trivial and useless concept of keeping them in a 8 x 16 pen that you move so that they eat the grass below...what is needed is a movable coop that they are put into at 4 weeks of age and they consider "home" no matter where it is moved to.I would also seriously consider a small solar panel, and some LED lights to wake them an hour before sunrise, and gather them at night into a lit space. Obviously, there is some need for "hands on" opening and closing of the doors to secure from predators.
In our current configuration....the chickens cover all of the open space....cow poop, pig poop, and to some degree now, goat droppings. This place is a "free fire zone" for bugs...and I just don't have any...no ants, no grasshoppers, no June Bugs, nothing that can't stay 10 feet above the ground. My tiny banties work all the roof and lower limb dwellers. So, we are not a "model" situation....there is a friend, who lurks here but never posts. He has bought hundreds of chicks from me, and has an admirable setup....I'll try and coax a peek of it out of him.He also has Dexters. I realize that this is not a poultry forum...but I said it earlier......EVERYONE here is headed the same place, some are just coming from a different direction. Poultry, integrated into your pest management plans and income stream will make your cattle more productive, healthier and happier
WV....Muscovies DON'T like deep water....they are land birds....a simple puddle is all the deeper they will go in. AND remember...you have good choices in chickens for bug control, and eggs....BUT if you likes fried chicken....you are going to need a BIG breed...and I highly recommend the Dark Cornish. Cross a few of them in and see what your drumsticks look like
HERE IS A "BEST PIECE OF ADVICE YOU WILL GET ALL WEEK" LINK www.jmhatchery.com/free-range-broiler/colored-range-chicks/prod_5.html
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Gorignak
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Post by Gorignak on Aug 7, 2013 19:06:25 GMT -5
I SEE THAT LINK IS NOT WORKING RIGHT NOW....KEEP TRYING....THEY MIGHT HAVE GOTTEN "SWAMPED" OUT OF BUSINESS....THEY HAVE HAD A LOT OF PRESS LATELY
JM Hatchery...."Freedom Rangers" French Vineyard poultry
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Post by rezzfullacres on Aug 7, 2013 21:09:36 GMT -5
s.You have to carry 1Million in liability to sell self-processed meat around here. So, batches of 100 go to a USDA processor.....Live birds go in.....$2.50/bird....vacuum packed, flash frozen packs come out....in any configuration we want.....thighs, drumsticks, breasts, or whole birds, or cut up singles....ALL USDA labeled and stamped and the weight recorded on the pack. We can sell them anywhere, ANY STATE, in the good old USA. The processor also is mindful of the current trend to less "chemical" involvement.... Looking at the whole picture.......$2.50/6-7lb bird is a small part of the cost to a family that is going to the local "Natural Foods" boutique store and paying up to $25. for the same bird. And......if I get in a jam.....$250. +fuel is not that much to get back 600 lbs of frozen, professionally cut up chicken. A 1 million $$$$ farmers market liability policy rider is about a $100 rider on your general farm liability policy, if you do not have that they are available as stand alone policies for about $300 or so depending upon your state.... If you do not have that coverage you are leaving yourself WIDE open to be sued....Even if you are not processing, the simple act of you distrubting the finished product opens you up to liability...The SICK person will sue the person who sold it, the person who provided it and the person who processed it, and all of those people will blame each other.....Looking at the whole picture I just will not give away money from the farms bottom line, guess that is the difference, my farm has to pay for it self, not someone else's lifestyle....Not only do you pay for processing but the "Natural Foods" boutique store also gets a cut, I would rather keep that for myself...... www.extension.org/sites/default/files/NMPAN%20State%20Poultry%20Regs%20Report%202August2011.pdf BTW I do not see the insurance requirement for poultry listed for Arkansas, is there a newer reference out there I am missing???
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Post by cddexter on Aug 7, 2013 21:24:49 GMT -5
Mike, have you looked into those photo cell timers? You can set them up with a rube Goldberg device to open and close the door to the henhouse automatically as the light intensifies and diminishes. All my chickens head for the roost as dusk approaches, the cell is set to a low light frequency, and I don't have to be there to close them in for the night. just thoughts.... c.
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Post by hdrockn on Aug 8, 2013 7:08:09 GMT -5
Hey Mike, You got my attention when you said no ants....does that include fire ants?
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Post by wvdexters on Aug 8, 2013 7:29:08 GMT -5
Yes, the dark cornish. Great birds. I have never seen one but I am very interested. They were in our top 4 and I hope to add some hens to the mix next year. They are described as excellent foragers, good protective mothers and great for Sunday dinner.
We are really trying to think out of the box. I have been so frustrated with the regular RIR's, White leghorns etc. that are readily available here. After repeated high losses to predators we've been forced to pen-up in the past. Gone are the rich orange yolks. All you are left with is mediocre eggs, high feed costs, no bug control and very unhappy chickens. We're looking for that free-range, thrifty, lower cost bird. Our local Tractor Supply (only choice available) carries limited varieties so we mailorder.
I checked out the jm site when you recommended them last year. We are going to go with their broilers next time we order.
Ducks- How are the muscovies with predators? We have had other land breeds in the past but lost them. They got them during the day when they were out of the pen. I loved the ducks. We raised one set in our son's old turtle sandbox, another in a child's plastic pool. Unfortunately the term "sitting duck" is true. I was hoping a pond might give them a fighting chance.
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Gorignak
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Post by Gorignak on Aug 8, 2013 7:35:57 GMT -5
THAT is a viable option Carol, and a sound one at that....BUT....I lost 50 pullets to an Eastern Spotted Skunk in one night. He/she climbed all over a chicken wire mesh pen until it found a small space the size of a half dollar and oozed through it. It proceeded to kill every bird in the pen, and only ate the heads of two.
SO....can I go to bed each night, trusting a mechanical device Iffy right now. I would want to hope that I could....but..... we installed our new 13 Joule charger on a pair of paddocks. We watched it for 24 hours.....then did the BIG MOVE...this cow to that pen.....20 pigs to each pen....EVERYBODY got moved. We watched as all the stock touched the fence and got their first taste. We woke up from a good night sleep to find the charger dead. I was lucky to have a 3 Joule setup that we could temporary in by linking two distant paddocks with a roll of the plastic/wire temp fencing. I probably will use mechanical means after a year of monitoring.
As for the discussion on processing....it is too individual to engage in a back-and-forth on cost/value/profit....or the morality of "hard work" vs hard work preceded by mindful planning. The link is outdated. WE in Arkansas are REQUIRED by law to have any meat offered for sale in Farmer's Markets to be processed and stamped in a USDA facility. I am going to assume the same "risk/reward" level for personal sales. SO.... we use USDA facilities. I would suggest, to those amenable to suggestion, that the careful evaluation of risk/reward be done for each individual. I find a LOT more peace of mind in being farther down the "food chain" in respect to the processing and sales. While it can be argued that the chain of responsibility COULD extend back to the entity that hatched the chicken...IN FACT, there are multiple layers of protection between chick and casserole. I do have 1M worth of liability....but do not consider that a buffer against a mistake or stupidity. The USDA poultry processing facility freezes hundreds of birds near instantaneously.... a feat that requires a VERY capable walk-in unit on the farm. Without such a unit, "stupidity" prevails in trying to freeze a hundred birds.....or 3 or 4 hogs in chest freezers. Our walk in is only a cooler. We have solved the problem, for our personal use, by purchasing several of the huge upright freezers, used of course, with wire shelves. Birds can be frozen much faster in them....but we don't leave them on. They are too inefficient to run continuously. I PERSONALLY would not trust that to retail sales...so we stay far down the chain....at a wholesale level.
Our farm has paid for itself, incredibly, for over 35 years now. The fact that some components are costing more than they are returning is not unusual. In fact, it is Business 101. We are establishing protocols and a customer base that will guarantee us enduring through the next several decades....trying to deny the retailers their cut is a recipe for failure. I spent 20 years selling a dresser for $1500. to dealers, that reached the customer on Long Island for $4500. Now, I sell it directly to the customer for $6000., through the miracle of the internet and my patience in establishing a reputation.......AND....the dresser/bureau/sideboard is made from $400. worth of lumber that I log, saw, and kiln dry on our property. Full Circle. Learn to do the same with your other "farm" products, and the same levels of reward will follow.
I have watched, and participated in the "Natural Food" market for 40 years. Your cows, beef, and milk are in that market. The changes that are happening now reflect MUCH LARGER changes in society. I have predicted, with uncanny precision, the directions of the changes for 25 years. I'll run with what I have.
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