Gorignak
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Post by Gorignak on Sept 1, 2013 19:09:27 GMT -5
Look, I don't know how most operate. I guess from looking at this, I don't much care. PHA would mean a trip to the abattoir ....PERIOD....for me. I really don't know any other way to put it...This looks like cold blooded murder to me.......shattered expectations, dashed plans, and crushed dreams.
tulsa.craigslist.org/grd/4022610535.html
Selling an excellent Dun Dexter Bull born on March 31st, 2012. He is registered with ADCA registration #031207. He is a Chrondro non-carrier, very gentle, excellent disposition, and excellent conformity. He is horned, is from excellent blood lines, and will make someone an excellent herd bull. I have both the sire and dam onsite and can provide pictures of both if interested. I can be reached at ###-###-####. His sire was RRV Jordan #025162 and his Dam was RRV Jolee #023016. The pictures don't do him justice and are a bit dated; come look at him, you won't be disappointed. We are asking $900 or best reasonable cash offer.
AND when checked...... ADCA Reg. No: 031207 Gender: Bull Polled: No Color: Dun Chondrodysplasia: Non-carrier PHA: Carrier Parentage DNA: Sire Qualifies
I mean....he ain't a bad lookin' guy. What are these folks waiting for....someone who is unprepared to ask the "correct" questions. And, how many of YOU would sell this guy to someone who was not smart enough to ask. How many believe that offering the pedigree with the PHA test would justify selling this to someone who seemed unfamiliar with its consequences.
AND....is there a situation where someone would want to use this bull for a "herd sire". I will comment, that if the necessary transparency and forthright behavior does not become a fixed, unshakable component of Dexter transactions, the laws of the jungle will eliminate the broadest customer base that everyone is enjoying currently. This looks like the basis for a real BUMMER of an article in Countryside or Mother Earth News. Am I correct that this bull should have been steered, or pulled from a "breeding" advertisement INSTANTLY upon the PHA Pos test.
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Post by Olga on Sept 1, 2013 20:32:36 GMT -5
It is hard to figure out what is in people's heads, Mike. The thing is, the price, for the size of the animal, isn't bad. However, if I was advertising a meat animal, I wouldn't mention registration information. This is why I think it is important that the ADCA take a stand on the PHA issue. In my opinion, the best initial way to tackle this is to limit registration for bulls that are PHA-negative only. As to this particular breeder, they have 2 total offspring registered, both PHA positive. Kudos to them for testing their calves! Unfortunately, chances are that their herd bull is PHA-positive, as he has a PHA-positive dam. But who am I to judge - I still haven't tested my bull Earnie! I think it's because I really like him and so far I've had some really nice non-PHA calves out of him. So I guess it comes down to this: making informed choices and sticking to ethical practices.
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Gorignak
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Post by Gorignak on Sept 2, 2013 7:55:52 GMT -5
I remember, in the 2nd through 8th grade, being drilled with the "New Baltimore Catechism", or...."all you really need to know for the next 60 years. Right....??!! Well, anyway....I remember the distinction between "Sins of Commission" and "Sins of Omission". It really is a concept that works well in calibrating ones moral compass. While this seller is probably doing an exemplary job of avoiding a "Sin of Commission", it looks like they are trying to slide an equally destructive "Sin of Omission" past an unsuspecting purchaser.
Anyway, I agree with Olga, with one exception. I don't think there was an iota of thought on the part of the seller that this could be a reasonable "beef" sale. He focused on the value as a herd sire. I think that is criminal...or should be.
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Post by wvdexters on Sept 2, 2013 8:39:39 GMT -5
It is a shame IMO if he's doing what it looks like he is doing. And that would be selling off a PHA pos bull as an excellent choice for a herd bull. And it looks like that is what is going on here.
I HOPE HOPE HOPE that there will be full disclosure to any and all would-be owners of the facts about this fellow's PHA status and what implications this will have on the "herd" he produces, and A complete and thorough discussion of PHA. I must say though, I doubt this will be the case, because most breeders who have a full understanding of these facts would not consider a carrier bull to be a good prospect for a breeding herd bull anyway. And would NEVER sell one as such.
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Post by carragheendexters on Sept 2, 2013 9:03:46 GMT -5
This I cannot believe. IMO it is unethical and immoral to sell an untested bull, let alone a PHA carrier status bull. I believe this animal should have been steered the moment he was found to be PHA positive, for no other reason than to prevent producing more PHA animals. He is not such a great animal that his genetics would be missed from the gene pool. By using this bull over your herd you are effectively producing (statistically) half of your years calves PHA positive. A bull is half your herd. In Australia, we have for a few years now only allowed PHA tested negative or "negative by inheritance" bulls to be registered. This came about after a vote was taken by the members of the DCAI who agreed to this. When PHA testing became available it was a very stressful time for Dexter breeders here. Those who had Aldebaran Priapus in their pedigrees were at risk of having positive animals, for the Australian herd this appeared to be the source animal. Many breeders made the choice to sell for slaughter their positive animals. Many also are breeding their way out. Kudos to them for taking positive steps to eliminate PHA. I don't think that it will too far along the track that the registered Australian herd will be PHA free. Egads, what were they thinking listing this animal for sale and not for slaughter. Sorry, but this isn't brain surgery. regards Louise
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Post by ssrdex on Sept 2, 2013 12:32:22 GMT -5
I don't understand at all anyone keeping a herd sire that tested pos for pha. Seems a no brainier to me. Having said that I couldn't pass judgement on someone keeping a pos cow in a herd with a neg bull. I think all pha pos bulls should be eaten, too many good ones out there.
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Gorignak
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Post by Gorignak on Sept 2, 2013 14:52:41 GMT -5
This one has me in an absolute frenzy. I agree that saddled with PHA Pos cows is a far different problem than using a PHA Pos bull for a herd sire. Kudos to all the folks who worked through, and are still wrestling with the problem in a forthright and honorable fashion. I can't mince words on this.....these bottom feeders are going to run this ad until an idiot comes along and buys this bull. Or until it is priced at a point that it gets fattened and slaughtered promptly.
Your little club (I haven't done my transfers yet!!??) better address this issue. Don't think complete and utter demise is not a possibility.....Remember the Corvair..??..Remember the K-Car...??..Detroit disgusted and alienated Americans with its failure to address similar problems....Unbelievable arrogance and shortsighted behavior by an entrenched hierarchy....SOUND FAMILIAR??!!
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Post by Olga on Sept 2, 2013 15:04:35 GMT -5
I have sent a letter to Pam Malcuit last year, giving my 2 cents on genetic testing policy. The main issues were: I was against requiring genotyping for females and proposed this instead: obligate carrier status can only be awarded to animals who are parentage-confirmed. The rest of my suggestions dealt with registered animals' genetic testing status and bulls' registration requirements. I just sent Jim Woehl this new-and-updated letter:
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Post by carragheendexters on Sept 2, 2013 15:15:46 GMT -5
Love your suggestion Olga. A sensible path to travel. regards Louise
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Gorignak
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Post by Gorignak on Sept 2, 2013 15:16:31 GMT -5
.
Great, Olga...thanks from me, and a lot more, I'll bet. This one had me livid. As the song goes...."....there but for fortune, go I". Not long ago, I am certain, I would have figured it out.....but I resent it even being in place to have to "figure" out. Thanks for the thought you put into this letter.... When I transfer my cattle I will include a similar observation to the hierarchy.
Argue all you want about Chondro......and enjoy each others company....BUT, PHA IS A SCOURGE.
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Post by ssrdex on Sept 2, 2013 15:57:43 GMT -5
Great letter Olga, thanks for taking the time to write and send it.
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Post by littlecowfl on Sept 3, 2013 8:22:28 GMT -5
I was caught in a situation, right when PHA first really surfaced, where a buyer came to look at the very first calves I was offering for sale. I had owned Dexters all of two years at this point and owned a total of three cows. When he asked about PHA, I gave him a blank look and then reverted to my military training. The old "I do not know but I will find out, sir." I pulled the calves off the market and tested everyone. Luckily, they were all negative, so I was able to offer the calves for sale again, now better educated and with a clean conscience.
To sell, knowingly, is unfathomable. Does this guy know what PHA is? Perhaps, someone can call and explain it to him? What if this is ignorance and not underhandedness? There are some breeders down here that do not test at all and do not mention it. If this is one of their buyers, they may have gotten zero information or inaccurate information.
Just trying to make sure we don't all gang up on someone who may be perpetuating something bad but may not have been the source of it.
Me? We would eat any PHA animals because it should be entirely eliminated. Regardless, I would never sell an animal without full disclosure of genetic testing results, temperament, and weaknesses and strengths of the particular animal. I know most here do the same thing. I also suggest what to look for in a mate for the animals I sell. If anything, I say too much, LOL!
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Post by littlecowfl on Sept 3, 2013 8:27:17 GMT -5
Just double-checked and the seller is not the breeder. The owner only has a couple of cows and this bull. Perhaps education would help? Who is their regional representative?
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Gorignak
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Post by Gorignak on Sept 3, 2013 8:36:00 GMT -5
THANKS for the bit of uplifting possibility.....You are correct, and I should have been the first to offer that...MY herd was subterfuge passed on to ignorance, disposed of to me....HAPPY ENDING. You are absolutely right that the current seller could be unaware of the devastating consequences of PHA.....IN FACT....that theory better fleshes out the current situation than some malevolent purpose....
Like a guy who's wife is having an affair that all his friends know about....."Who's gonna tell him"??
AAAAAARGH.... I'm the one should do it....Okay, here goes.
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Post by lakeportfarms on Sept 3, 2013 9:18:30 GMT -5
Actually, I think it's a good bet that the PHA comes from this bulls sire. If you look at RRV Jordan's pedigree, PHA is not listed, but he has Aldebaran right there. Both of RRV Jordan's progeny are PHA carriers, bred by the seller. The seller is obviously testing for PHA and posting the results. But I agree that this is a sin of omission in the advertisement. I'm only guessing, but the owner probably purchased the bull from the other breeder and didn't know about PHA, and now he's stuck with both bull and bull calf that have PHA but he doesn't want to butcher them and "lose" his investment. Maybe he's waiting for a non-PHA bull calf to replace him in the meantime, but he's passing his problems on to another unsuspecting buyer. Mike, we all vote for you to call and ask him why he's selling this bull without disclosing the PHA status on his CL ad. Once you've done that, then you can invite him over for a steak dinner with a baked potato in a few weeks. You can furnish the potato and the butter that goes on it, and he can bring the steak.
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