|
Post by Olga on Sept 3, 2013 19:19:33 GMT -5
Personnaly, I am not blaming any of the people involved, because I don't know their circumstances. I was trying to underline my impression that there is a systemic problem here. A protential problem is getting passed on and on and on. Whatever the circumstances though, the situation would've been better if there had been clearly defined ADCA guidelines on PHA in Dexters.
|
|
dexterlady
member
Wife, mother of two daughters and five grand children
Posts: 647
|
Post by dexterlady on Sept 3, 2013 21:03:25 GMT -5
"This lethal mutation can be ( and should be )eliminated from the breed"...I couldn't have agreed more with this...Donna
|
|
|
Post by marion on Sept 4, 2013 4:58:38 GMT -5
I'll bet you wouldn't think that if you owned a truly magnificant Dexter, better than any other, that proved to be a PHA carrier. You wouldn't want to eliminate him. I would be inclined to continue using him to get his outstanding traits. I'd make certain that I didn't use him over a PHA carrier cow, because of the danger to the cow. I would then test every calf to find out whether they inherited the gene. Then I would evaluate each calf that tested as a carrier. Being a PHA carrier shows no symptoms in the carrier animal. They are no different from the rest of the Dexter population. It is entirely possible that your Grand Champion bull, your favorite milker, your matched pair of oxen, your tasty-tender steer could be carriers. The only reason to fear PHA is in an inappropriate breeding. Such a breeding poses no danger to the bull, but could result in a problem pregnancy, endangering the cow and producing a non-viable calf. Two of those I mentioned, steers and oxen, need not even be tested for PHA. It makes no difference in Dexters that are not used for breeding. Among cows that test positive, an excellent use is as recipient cows for embryo transfer. Why waste a year of a valuable cow's life for that purpose? If we did all get behind it, and managed to eliminate PHA in future generations, I hope that some semen and embryos of PHA carriers will be stored in a vault, like the Swiss Village Foundation maintains, as insurance against the possibility that there are in fact some positive aspects to the condition. Remember what happened to hybrid corn last century, when the seed stock was lost? Think about how sickle cell anemia protects so many Africans from the effects of malaria. We're smart, but we're not THAT smart. Sometimes we move along a little bit, then have to say, "Oops!" and back up. Obviously gene, I was talking about breeding stock, not castrated animals. A cow kept as an embryo recipient would not need to be registered. Very few people do embryo work so that is hardly an excuse for adding PHA carriers to the population. Using a PHA carrier bull then "evaluating each calf tested as a carrier" is all well and good, except when any of those are sold on, adding more carriers (and more decisions re their future and their descendents) to the Dexter population. The perpetuation of PHA carriers MUST stop somewhere. The sooner, the better. There would be few animals with such unique genetics as to justify keeping them in the breeding pool. I believe the only way to eliminate PHA would be to require the testing of EVERY Dexter (unless obligate free and PV) before allowing it into the regular registry. An appendix registry could be created for PHA Carrier breeding stock. The Appendix registry could then be phased out after a certain length of time..marion
|
|
|
Post by rezzfullacres on Sept 4, 2013 6:43:07 GMT -5
I believe the only way to eliminate PHA would be to require the testing of EVERY Dexter (unless obligate free and PV) before allowing it into the regular registry. An appendix registry could be created for PHA Carrier breeding stock. The Appendix registry could then be phased out after a certain length of time..marion There is no need to go that far.....Set a time frame, 5 to 6 years would be plenty and after that no bulls can be registered without a negative PHA test...Allow existing bulls to remain.....If you eliminate the bulls from the PHA equation eventually PHA will be removed from the herd with no loss of "cows". The 5 to 6 year waiting period is to allow an owner of a PHA + bull the time to either breed for a new bull using thier existing blood lines or locate one without placing undue hardship on that breeder.....Reasonable people can come up with reasonable solutions if emotions are left out of the equation........We have made this sugguestion to the ADCA several times but....................
|
|
|
Post by wvdexters on Sept 4, 2013 8:14:06 GMT -5
My problem is with the advertisement; the statement - EXCELLENT HERD BULL. This is where the dishonesty is IMO.
I believe it comes under Do Unto Others....
PHA is here. Many breeders are dealing with it, responsibly and honestly. With information, testing, and full disclosure. And I believe they should be commended.
I actually had that used car/radio trick tried on me once. Except it was a used truck.
|
|
Gorignak
member
Farm Facebook page is now up. Stop by and say HI !!
Posts: 569
|
Post by Gorignak on Sept 4, 2013 8:41:37 GMT -5
"Imagine a Dexter born who could talk"......."and then he sired a calf that could write poetry"....and then they were found to be PHA positive.....Would YOU send them to "Cowschwitz"......Cut it out, Gene....<>...PM me, I have a startling revelation. Cut the crap.....
THANKS ALL who are reinforcing what I already know. GET RID OF IT...... FAIRLY......AND RIGHT NOW.
Sorry to disinter a vanquished social scourge....But let's get socially philosophical here. Doesn't it seem to you that the folks who WANT PHA GONE, are the smaller breeders....the little herdsmen....THE PROLETARIAT. And does it not seem unusual that those who caution patience, impede the discussion, and couch it in problematic paragraphs of "Wait and See"....There isn't agreement" and, my favorite, " YOU JUST DON'T UNDERSTAND", the people who will benefit the most from delay and confusion, and are often those with a large economic stake in the status quo. Dare I say it....The Gentry...the existing power base. Thank you, Karl.
Or in the words of a more "modern" philosopher. " ........They just takes care of #1.....and #1 ain't you.......YOU ain't even #2." Thank you, Frank.
There is something else a pitchfork has been used for, other than shoveling manure. For thousands of years it has stood as the symbol of defiance for those with unaddressed insults and no other recourse.
I have a pitchfork...and I pretty sure that all of you have one. If not, I have an extra to loan.
I think you know where the Castle Walls are.
|
|
|
Post by marion on Sept 4, 2013 9:44:30 GMT -5
"Imagine a Dexter born who could talk"......."and then he sired a calf that could write poetry"....and then they were found to be PHA positive.....Would YOU send them to "Cowschwitz"......Cut it out, Gene....if someone at your place is picking those mushrooms in the cow pies and frying them up for you...PM me, I have a startling revelation. Cut the crap.....
Pretty much what I think Mike. Dexter breeders large or small love our animals. Dexters are special. But we owe it to the breed to breed away from PHA, and quickly. It is becoming quite obvious that it won't happen voluntarily. Those who have tested and eliminated carriers, or have made the difficult decision to retain a good carrier, but make carrier heifer offspring into honorary steers and never sell any carriers on, don't need the association to force their hand. Then there are the rest, who really believe it should merely be 'managed', like chondro, and then there are those who just don't go there at all. Ignorance is bliss, until someone gets a PHA calf. Gene said in an earlier post that PHA carriers are just like any other cow. No problem. Well, I say sure, except they carry a lethal recessive gene that would have to be 'managed' for the rest of time.marion
|
|
|
Post by otf on Sept 4, 2013 10:11:01 GMT -5
Thought some of you might be interested in my personal history with this topic, for what it's worth. On October 1, 2011, I made a formal motion to the ADCA Board regarding testing paperwork. My email invited the comments of any recipient (there were none). (This concept was previously proposed at a BOD meeting prior to an AGM by Robert Seddon; the motion was withdrawn because no member of the BOD supported it; an official vote was never taken.) Here is what I sent: I am presenting the following motion formally to you for consideration by the entire ADCA Board of Directors, with a recorded vote, and the ADCA organization as a whole.
MOTION: Upon the sale of a Dexter animal (registered or unregistered, including embryos for embryo transfer fertilization as well as semen for artificial insemination), the seller, as a member of the ADCA, agrees to provide the buyer with copies of any and all test results pertaining to the animal(s), including DNA genotyping, color, chondrodysplasia, PHA, and A2 results, as well as any other testing in the future that might influence the breeding choices to be made by the new owner.
While the original test results remain the property of the person(s) originally paying for the tests, the results of that testing should be considered a part of the animal that was tested, and thereby follow the animal tested for the duration of its lifetime. END OF MOTION
I believe that this motion will help support the Dexter breed by reducing the effects of some lethal genetic anomalies inherent in the breed that can be easily avoided by making the information involved a part of the individual animal tested. Additionally, new owners would receive information that is vital to the successful future of the animal(s) they are purchasing. Epidemic HIV is a perfect example of what can happen when testing data is not known or made available.
Here’s a paraphrased version of the ADCA’s response: (1) this motion should be presented in person at the next AGM (June 2012, 8 months in the future) but we considered it anyway; (2) the motion received no second; (3) testing is voluntary and confidential and cannot be enforced; (3) we will rely on the Code of Ethics to assist breeders; (4) thanks for your concern. So…we should require all Dexter owners/breeders to genotype all females instead? (Perhaps my motion would have received more attention if it had been in small print on the back of a postcard.). And isn’t it interesting that we are required to color test in order to register certain animals? I don’t believe the organization is concerned with PHA beyond entrusting its management to responsible breeders who take the time to educate their prospective buyers. Sadly, that continues to be the ONLY means of reaching people who are interested in Dexters. Until the association(s) enforce testing or refuse registration without it, it will continue to be the breeders’ responsibility. In October 2011, I submitted an article “Because It’s the Right Thing to Do” to the Dexter bulletin. Here’s the link to it: dextercattle.org/bulletin_archive/bulletins_2011_2020/2011%20Fall%20ADCA%20Dexter%20Bulletin.pdfIn addition, I also got permission from Beef Magazine to publish a reprint of an article on genetic defects (“Avoiding the Worst”) in the Fall 2011 Dexter Bulletin; here’s that link: beefmagazine.com/genetics/avoiding_worst_20100201
|
|
|
Post by midhilldexters on Sept 4, 2013 10:34:51 GMT -5
[quote author=" midhilldexters" source="/post/27834/thread" timestamp="1378250989" Many of you have the attitude that losing genetics from a Chondro carrier is a big no no as the breedings can be managed, why on earth is a PHA carrier any different? Carol K [/quote] Mike, want to answer my question??? Carol K
|
|
|
Post by legendrockranch on Sept 4, 2013 13:16:05 GMT -5
Conversations like this don't even exist with large breed associations. Why? Because they do not allow any animal that carriers a genetic defects to be registered. It hurts the breed and it hurts the unspecting buyer.
With the Dexter breed it is different we allow genetic defects into out breed for various reasons which I won't go into at this time. So we will continue to hear these stories until something else can be done. I have been trying for several years to have mandatory (hate that word) testing for genetic defects of all Dexters. I always hear the same excuse, people won't test, or they'll transfer over to the PDCA, so what. The ADCA should be taking the high road and do what's best for the breed. I AM NOT ADVOCATING getting rid of chondro, or what ever defect is waiting us around the corner just mandatory testing. and notification that would follow the animal around stating the condition and how to breed around it to avoid any possible problems.
Barb
|
|
|
Post by ssrdex on Sept 4, 2013 13:19:10 GMT -5
IMO, a chondro pos animal can actually add characteristics that are desirable to some, that a non- carrier cannot. As far as I know, there's nothing you can get from a pha carrier that you can't get from a non...except pha. I agree that bulls should test free of pha before being registered.
|
|
|
Post by lakeportfarms on Sept 4, 2013 15:14:24 GMT -5
Joel has it exactly right. I seek out chondro carriers for our herd, not PHA carriers. Chondro was what attracted me to the breed. I know it's the case with many others. Furthermore, chondro (most of the time) expresses itself in the physical characteristics, whereas PHA does not. Most anybody familiar with chondro could come to our herd and pick out the carriers, but you wouldn't know if any had PHA unless you looked (in our case) at their on-line pedigree.
However, I sympathize with and believe that owners with PHA affected Dexters should be able to breed them if they choose, as long as testing is done. Ultimately, and I think the time is here that new PHA bulls shouldn't be allowed to be registered.
Getting back to the person who placed the CL ad, they specifically mentioned the bull is non-chondro and would be a good herd sire, but omitted the PHA information even though it is available. This does seem to go against the ADCA code of Ethics.
|
|
Gorignak
member
Farm Facebook page is now up. Stop by and say HI !!
Posts: 569
|
Post by Gorignak on Sept 4, 2013 16:25:46 GMT -5
Joel got it in 100 words or less.....Hans fleshed it out. Those are the elegantly simple reasons. Let me turn over a couple more rocks and see what we might find.
WHY would folks who have advertised to no end that their herds are "PHA FREE" rise in indignation to NOT support its elimination ??
IT IT POSSIBLE that if the HIDDEN defect is allowed to proliferate, IT DIMINISHES THE VALUE OF ALL DEXTERS THAT DO NOT COME FROM ESTABLISHED TESTED HERDS. Would it not be nice to just "look at the legs" and have a sense of what is inside. Often, Chondro offers that. I AM NOT ARGUING IN FAVOR OR AGAINST CHONDRO POSITIVE ANIMALS. I am merely suggesting that the math WORKS IN FAVOR OF THE TESTED HERD... as long as the genetic flaw is allowed to proliferate unchecked. If and when PHA is tested out of the breed, that advantage disappears, and all that remains is a choice between chondro positive or not. Craigslist then becomes a source of animals with knowable traits and "defects".
AND I will add....Chondro has been "grandfathered" in for a VERY long time. It has an effect, and a desirable purpose for some....to produce a "small" cow. IT HAS APPEAL..... So does smoking. ANYBODY here a tobacco addict or a former one like me Nasty and alienating....once you are on that train, it is a pleasant ride and a great friend...until you hit the brick wall at 40 - 50 - or 60. We have a 500 year history with tobacco....it isn't going anywhere soon...BUT I DOUBT THE USDA IS GOING TO GIVE THE NOD TO SOME EQUALLY ADDICTING NEW HABIT...
Chondro fits that mold....it is here, has been here, satisfies a need, and is manageable by most.
PHA fits or fulfills nothing.....
I am NOT an authority on this subject....but I don't have to be to have an opinion.... Rid the breed of PHA in a manner that is fair to those trapped with it now.....
OH...and concerning that initial Craigslist Ad that prompted this....COUNT THE NUMBER OF TIMES THE WORD "EXCELLENT" WAS USED. Disgusting Disgusting Disgusting Disgusting Disgusting.....just for a "fair balance".
|
|
|
Post by wvdexters on Sept 4, 2013 16:29:32 GMT -5
Maybe the time will come when we have a "bull package" One package - One cut rate price
1 registration 2 genotyping 3 PHA test or obligate 4 Chondro test or obligate
And test results shown on registration/ with registration completed by breeder/owner not purchaser
Just an idea that may come down the road.
|
|
|
Post by rezzfullacres on Sept 4, 2013 16:44:16 GMT -5
Maybe the time will come when we have a "bull package" One package - One cut rate price 1 registration 2 genotyping 3 PHA test or obligate 4 Chondro test or obligate And test results shown on registration/ with registration completed by breeder/owner not purchaser Just an idea that may come down the road. We have stated our postion on PHA but this is our fall back position. The ADCA should implement a "GOLD" level registration, not just for bulls but cows as well. It would include testing for parentage, pha and Chondro.....Would you pay more for a "GOLD" level animal than a standard one?? I bet many one, and at the same time it would probably entice more people to test.....JMO
|
|