Comparison of 2 bulls

[tonhou]

Here are two bulls. I am wondering if there is any opinion concerning looks from these photos. Some background - both are chondro & PHA non-carriers. One is A1/A2 and the other A2/A2. One is 3 years old, the other 2. One is a bred-up bull (happens down under) and one is a full blood.

Is either more appealing than the other?

--Tony

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[Deleted]

On face value, yes go for the fullblood and the A2/A2.

But then if you have access to both bulls and you have a few girls - why not best match bull to cow?

Each of the above bulls would have something slightly different to offer to their offspring and matching their desirables to your girls would be benefical.

In two years when the resulting heifers are ready for joining, you will again have choices which could take you quickly to where you want to be.

Cheers
Donna

[carragheendexters]

Hi Tony,
comparing the looks of the bulls from the photos, at a glance ( 2nd photo not so good because he is standing downhill)
1st bull, better topline, loose sheath, may have weak pasterns, may be sickle hocked
2nd bull, may have high tail head, tighter sheath, stronger pasterns, may be sickle hocked or could just be the photo, deeper bodied
Don't forget these are just my opinion and comments from the photos, photos don't always tell the truth.
If any of these comments are valid, the decision of which bull to use would depend on what your cows are like and what faults you are happy with, and what desirable traits you want in your herd . Don't forget a bull is half your herd.
regards Louise

[tonhou]

Thanks for the comments.
Louise, you have looked hard and I appreciate your observations.
I have in fact just sold the top one (bred-up, 2 year old, A1/A2) and purchased the bottom one (full blood, 3 year old, A2/A2). You have helped me focus a bit better on some of the key areas.

--Tony

[Deleted]

Im a little confused.

I have the DCAI Dexter Breed Standards for Breeding, Showring and Registration in my hand and absolutely nowhere does it mention sheath or how it should be presented on the Dexter?

There is a reference to Skin:

Loose and pliable…………then it goes on to hair being sleek in summer and long and thicker in winter.

And there is nothing about sheath or skin in the undesirables column nor the Unacceptable for Registration.

So the presentation of the sheath a personal thing?

[carragheendexters]

No, it isn't a personal thing, loose sheaths in any breed other than bos indicus is considered a fault. Dexters commonly have the problem. Even in bos indicus, excessively loose sheaths are considered a fault. In the showring a bull will be penalised for it.

It doesn't mention it in the breed standard, I think that it is assumed that a general cattle fault doesn't need to be pointed out.

There are many cattle faults that the standard doesn't mention, (even in the fault section) such as advanced tailhead, weak pasterns, teats on the scrotum, twisted testicles, loose suspensory ligaments, winged shoulders, etc. There are a lot of assumptions in cattle that are not written in the standards.
Yes, Dexters shouldn't have a tight skin, nor should it be as loose as a bos indicus breed.

regards Louise

[Deleted]

Hi Louise

Yes I did have this discussion on another thread and understand it’s a fault and can be the cause of many issues.

But as a newbie, I can see things with fresh eyes and really if it’s an ‘issue’ in the Dexter breed then there should be a guide, a standard to which people can read, research and better understand.

Its misleading to comment that skin should be loose. It leaves a whole world open to interpretation.
You may say it shouldn’t be as loose as bos indicus but another may say, well that’s my definition of ‘loose skin’.

Im not having a go at you personally – I want to point out that allowing for ‘assumptions’ is a dangerous path to the uninformed.

Not every newbie to the Dexter is going to participate, or even read a forum – but the majority will read the breed standard.

Maybe its time to start being a little more specific in what is meant by certain terms and begin to close the doors on variations in ‘the interpretation’ or assumptions when it comes to the breed standard.

Cheers
Donna

[carragheendexters]

Hi Donna,
The breed Standard is simply that, a breed standard, it cannot cover every fault that is possible in cattle. It is not the breed societies responsibility to educate people on basic cattle structure, conformation and faults. Some responsibility must be taken by the individual to educate themselves on the basics of cattle structure. There are many courses and sources available for self education.

When we first purchased our first cattle, (commercial Herefords and Angus,) we were in the same boat as yourself, we knew nothing about cattle.
Fortunately I had a few friends , one who is a dairy farmer and judge (Illawarras, perhaps the best in Australia, always win at Royals), and a couple of others who had stud cattle and showed their cattle, (Herefords and Simmentals) they were fantastic. They spent so much time helping us and teaching us about cattle structure and desirable traits and faults.

I would hang out with them at the saleyards every Thursday, listening to their conversations and asking questions.
There are courses out there on cattle structure and husbandry. We did a few, and nowadays we go to as many workshops and field days as we can to keep on trying to learn new stuff.

The DCAI Promotion Group meetings are a great place to learn as well. There are people at the meetings with experience who can help new members, and teach them about cattle. Most meetings are held on members properties and there is a farm walk and checking out the cattle. That is why the DCAI encourages new members to contact their Promotion Group and try to get to meetings.

Another great place for learning about cattle structure is shows. Watching the judging of all the different breeds and listening to the judges critiquing the cattle is great. You hear what other people think about cattle, and the judges pick on every little point. Different judges have different outlooks, and they often bring up points that you haven't previously considered. It really helps to broaden your education in cattle.

When the standard talks about skin, to check pliability you roll the skin on their necks or over their ribs, nothing to do with loose sheaths. Sheaths are a totally different trait and with different genetic hereditability to skin.

Hope this has been of some help to you.
regards Louse

[Deleted]

Its not me who I was thinking of Louise but thanks anyways.

Cheers

[carragheendexters]

Oct 1, 2013 23:13:45 GMT -5 @lindon said:

Im a little confused.

Sorry Donna, my mistake, I must have misunderstood your post when you said you were confused.
regards Louise

[Deleted]

Yes Louise. Confused over the fact the standard does not mention sheaths yet it's a particular hate of many breeders.

Cheers Donna.

[zephyrhillsusan]

This post and the answers have been helpful to me as a newbie. I wish we could take a class on conformation! But you all just gave us a mini one here--the photos and comments on them are so helpful!