Importance of pedigree?

[lakeportfarms]

Here's our dilemma...though to preface I'll say we're going to keep both for a while so perhaps it's not so much of a dilemma.

We're going to have to replace Mike soon, he's been a great bull but he's starting to struggle with the more active girls and heifers.  We've also noticed a recent change in his scrotum which has us a bit baffled, it's really expanded at the neck almost to the same circumference as the lower part, which is still pretty substantial though.  If anybody has any thoughts on that I'd be interested...he has bred back 25+ cows this past year, confirmed.

We have a nice little replacement bull who is nearly 2, Dylan MT, and he reminds us of Mike (of old) more than Mike does now.  However this February we had another nice little bull that is shaping up quite nicely.  They're a year apart in age so it's difficult to draw a side by side comparison, all we have going for us is what we remember Dylan as a year ago, but they're remarkably similar from what we can remember.  Both are sired by Mike, and Bull #2, MC Guinness, is the son of a daughter (Claudia) of Wieringa's Ned, who was a favorite of the Wieringa's for quite a few years and a 2x national champion.  Claudia also was the dam of Jellison's Bella, who the Wieringa's took to the AGM in Ft. Wayne and she won the Junior Cow class I think.   Mike of course is the sire of Paula, who was a pretty prolific winner at the AGM herself.  Both bulls are dun, chondro +, PHA free, and A2/A2.

So, all other things being equal, are we better off with the bull that has the show pedigree on both sides, or should we narrow it down to the usual bull evaluation including temperament?  Or do we hang on with both for a while until they've both got some calves on the ground that we can compare?  Sheril keeps telling me we want to have "an heir and a spare".  I counter with we'll have Mike for a long time to come in that tank over there so we actually do have a spare...

I'm thinking it's best to wait another year or two when they're both fully mature and then decide which one to favor in our breedings.

[legendrockranch]

I would take a hard look at the dams both of these bull calves are out of. Do they have everything you are looking for?

Barb

[dexterfarm]

I would keep both until there older. I could be wrong but isnt Ned on the large side?

[lakeportfarms]

Barb,  I sort of like Dylan's mom (Tia Faye) a bit more than Claudia.  Tia Faye's udder is quite nice, great suspension, good teat placement, and well forward, though not a lot of volume.  She's a small cow, 40" at 6 years old.  Claudia's teat spacing is a bit off, though it has good suspension and more volume.  Claudia has also thrown some fairly leggy non-carriers, though they were not sired by Mike.  Claudia is a bit larger than Tia Faye.  Claudia has a slightly better temperament.  I've never seen Tia Faye's mom, but I liked her sire, Shamrock Chili Pepper, a lot.

Mike, Ned was on the larger side.  Ned has sired the current national champ bull, Huey, and we also own a couple of cows out of one of his sons, Tom.  One is a carrier and one a non-carrier, and they are both fairly small cows.  Tom isn't a really large bull.  They also have terrific temperaments.  So far Guinness is a fairly short boy, even for a chondro carrier, but I don't think he's as short as Dylan at the same age.  

Obviously, there isn't a ton of participation at the AGM show, so there are many other fine bulls out there that would be serious contenders, but Ned (and his son) were the best of the best the years they were there.  The question for me is how much of an impact does that have on people's perceptions about the quality of your herd and your success in selling them, all other things being fairly close.  Is it really important, or just important to some people?  But I agree that keeping both and evaluating them as they get to maturity should help with the decision on what to do.  I've been wanting a clone of Shamrock Mike since he was injured a few years ago, and I've gotten my wish a few times over plus a bunch of other bulls to choose from too.  I'm ready for some heifers out of his next calf crop!

[ssrdex]

I'd say the only dilemma is losing Mike, but the tank is your friend. I've got nowhere near your situation Hans, but it seems you've had the luxury of very consistent calves with Mike and you don't want to lose that. With your herd size, and were I in your situation, I'd use both young bulls over some of the girls to evaluate calves? Maybe even some of the less than great ones to look for improvement, though perhaps that's going at it backwards. Easy for me to Monday-morning quarterback your herd though.

[dexterfarm]

for me and I think many others it makes no difference if there is a show winner in the pedigree or not.

[lakeportfarms]

The replies are pretty much along the lines of what I was thinking. The goal is to select the best replacement possible for Mike, as he's had incredible consistency with his calves. Dylan is pint sized Mike. We've already decided to retain a long legged boy out of Mike and Fisher Creek Farm Luc to breed to our shortie girls, so that's settled. So far King is looking pretty good, and he has a great temperament, but he's only 10 months old.

We'll keep watching them all grow, and probably try each of them out on selected cows to see what they produce as well. Time to make some additional "bullpens" I guess.

[wvdexters]

Hans, I don't have a lot of experience with this yet, But I think it is good that you will be keeping Mike for a while. That way you will be able to compare his calves to those of whichever new bull you are keeping (trying out). Having both on the ground you can compare them head-to-head without having to rely on memory. And you can evaluate them all together to make sure of the direction you want to take your herd in the future.

As for the importance of being a "show winner". Perhaps for some people, especially newer breeders (beginners)if you are planning to offer him as an AI bull. I'd say most people though will be looking at the bull himself when they make their choice and not the awards. Most of us don't show.

[cddexter]

Hans, don't let 'show winner' influence you. One of the most popular bulls, not far from you, and a frequent winner, has a very bad sheath attachment. One of the reasons he wins is that he's mature and so aces younger animals that haven't yet reached their potential, because the judge can only pick the best of what's in front of him, not allow for that potential. Since consistency is female related, if you want to maintain Mike as the dominant gene source, I'd look to Mike's dam and his sire's dam, first. then if you like the pedigree AND like the animal in 3D, that's the replacement I'd pick. it takes years and years of selection to be able to consider most calves, as with time one develops a consistent herd, and (having weeded out the traits you don't like) you can be safe in knowing the remainder will all be good. cheers, c.

[lakeportfarms]

Thanks Carol,

We are pretty happy with our little bull Dylan.  He looks more like Mike everyday.  But since this other bull is also looking good I was thinking about keeping him intact and seeing how he further develops.  I understand about the dam's side and we've already sought out and purchased any of the progeny of Mike's dam that we could find, and I have to say they're our best cows.  But they're also shorties and we have been a little too busy to arrange to have them AI'd to an exceptional bull.  Maybe in the next year or so.

I think Mike is looking pretty tired now.  Any thoughts about his scrotum and what's been going on with it?  It definitely looks different, noticeably wider at the neck.  I don't see much point in a BSE now with him at his age, and since we can move the cows to Dylan after giving him a couple of months to get them bred.  We'll use Mike's semen on the cows that we've had the best results out of over the years.

I recall at the Ft. Wayne show a bull that had a terrible sheath attachment,  the judge even remarked about it but still gave the top honors to him.  Sheril and I were very surprised he won with such a glaring fault. 

[cddexter]

exactly what I said to Nancy. That's when she explained about having to judge what was in front of her that day, and not base an opinion on future quality and that's why the mature bull won. She also ignored the chondro gene, and judged each animal on its merits. Sometimes it was the dwarf, sometimes it was the non but the placement had nothing to do with the gene and everything to do with quality. cheers, me.

[lakeportfarms]

Carol,

I still don't understand that reasoning...and that implies that bull selection at an early age is pointless or just dumb luck. Why do you have to judge an animal based only "on what is in front of you that day"? Certainly there is enough experience with a judge that he/she can predict with some degree of accuracy how the animal looks in relation to others of that age, especially when you are combining the different classes for a grand champion award. And that would translate into a predicted quality at a mature age. I agree if things are close then the natural choice is going to be the mature animal, but when you have such visible faults I would think that's a big strike against a top selection. Regarding chondro, horned, polled, etc... since the breed standards list them as equal merit that speaks for itself.

[cddexter]

jeez louise, ask a judge. that's how it is. It's all about condition, conformation, and temperament, today. Not tomorrow, not yesterday. Of course they can see the potential, but potential isn't always realized. The best bull in its class should win, but when comparing winners for a championship, the calf always loses out to the older animal, and the older animal nearly always loses out to a big mature bull. Maybe that's why they continue to show him?

I can see today that my last bull calf Calum is going to look just like Benny when he grows up, same size, same length, but even more heavily muscled. Put him in the ring with the above bull today and he'd lose, even though if you compare photos of Calum five years from now with pics of the above bull today, Calum'd wipe the floor with him. It just won't happen now. Think how unevenly some animals grow...that should be another clue.

If you want overall better regardless of day, that's where evaluation comes in. It takes potential into consideration. That allows my guy to tell me a calf currently scores 94, and will be 96 or 97 when it matures. that allows me to pick the best based on both pedigree (great animals that scored well behind him with the knowledge those traits are being passed on) and on 3D (what's in front of me on the ground, walking around).

No?

cheers, me.

[lakeportfarms]

So Carol...anybody...perhaps you missed my question about Mike's scrotum buried in the post. It's dramatically changed shape over the past couple of months, and it's not related to the colder weather we're having now. It's increased in size up at the neck, and though I haven't taken a measurement, seems to have decreased in size and shortened in length as well. Is this perhaps physical evidence of a loss of fertility? As winter approaches, he's also not developing his facial or front shoulder ruff like he has in previous years, his hair is still quite short and not curly at all.

[zephyrhillsusan]

www.bovineengineering.com/NL_fertile_bull.html

Lakeportfarms, I don't know anything at all about this, but you piqued my interest, and I am good on Google. The article (link above) has some info that I think is relevant. It doesn't mention the scrotal changes you mentioned, but does talk about the hair curling or not. I'm really interested in learning more because we're getting our first bull (calf) in Jan. Good luck, I hope you figure it out!

Susan