Milk Performance in Dexters

[northstar]

I only have one cow, but bought to provide milk. No pedigree, or even any information about her. She's long-legged, red, and polled. This is her second lactation, and I milked 1 and 1/2 gallons from her a day, after the first month,when I started separating them, and milking once a day. Until then, I was milking twice a day, because her calf only nursed one side, and she was lopsided. I never weighed the milk, just measuring as I put it away. After about 4 months, she was down to about a gallon-a gallon and 1/4. I never weighed her calf, but she grew very well on what she was getting. I'm sure the calf got more than I did, and would be curious to see how much, but NOT curious enough to milk twice a day, bottle feed the calf, and pay $98 a bag for milk replacer. When they were separated, the calf had hay, and calf starter, but barely nibbled on it until she was about 3-4 months, even with a 12 hour separation. As I've mentioned before, the only problem I have is her drying up after selling the calf, but I won't be doing that again. There are just two of us at home, but she provides milk for us and several families, and her calf. We all have different needs, and this works great for me. Marsha

[Deleted]

What a load of "rubbish". Calves are curious animals and will stick their heads into bowls that their mothers are eating from.

Edited to respect the sensitive nature of others

[marion]

Nov 18, 2013 15:14:23 GMT -5 @donlindexters said:

What a load of crap. Calves are curious animals and will stick their heads into bowls that their mothers are eating from.

I have to wonder that proboards will not allow the shortform of 'Richard' but they will allow the posting of 'crap' and not change it to 'manure' or 'excrement' or perhaps more similar to 'thingy'....doo-doo.

Donlin, I'm sure you could make your point without resorting to pottymouth.

[carragheendexters]

Hi Northstar,
your Dexter cow is doing what she should be doing, feeding her calf and also giving you enough milk to be of use. She doesn't need a pedigree for that, but obviously she has the right genetics to produce milk. The calf was probably drinking 1 to 11/2 gallon (4-6l) if you were doing an overnight separation, though they usually produce more volume during the day, but often higher cream content at night. Did you milk her out totally to collect the cream?
You got it in one when you say the calf barely nibbled on the solid feed, till 3-4 months, even though separated from the cow, the last feed it had must have been more than sufficient to keep it satisfied.
You have a good Dexter then, obviously one that is doing the job that Dexters are promoted to do.

RedRidges suggestion to work out how much she can produce is a great idea. Gives you the figures without the expense of milk replacer, and the better product of real milk to feed the calf.
Be proud of your cow doing what she was bred to do.

regards Louise

[carragheendexters]

Hi Genebo,
you probably think I am Dexter bashing here, but I'm far from it. I love Dexters, otherwise I wouldn't have my own herd but another breed.

What I do object to is the incorrect information out there that is used for promoting Dexters, Gorignak has listed a lot of those different promotional quotes.
20 litres?? That is 4 1/2 gallons, how many Dexters are there that can still produce that quantity of milk?

Where do these internet sites get their information from? Either they have read it somewhere or someone has told them these "facts"
I am sure they don't just make it up.

If the Dexter community is going to be promoting Dexters as wonderful house cows, producing lots of milk (20litres?) perhaps a bit of quality control may be in order, to back up those claims, instead of it being nothing more than "heresay and old wives tales".

Genebo, perhaps you could ask the people you know who milk their Dexter cows how much their cows are milking each day, and whether they leave the calf with the cow and approx. how much milk they think it drinks per day, , or whether they replacer feed it.

It would be great if you could then report back here on these figures.

regards Louise

[carragheendexters]

Hi Donna,
just because your calves are eating concentrates (treats or whatever you wish to call supplementary feeding) at 4 weeks of age, does not make what I wrote "rubbish" (using your better choice of word for a public forum)
A baby calf that has it's appetite satisfied on milk has little desire for eating solids. Their rumen isn't even functioning at this age.
regards Louise

[Deleted]

As an add-on from my post re surgical castration:

I am happy to report that yesterday the vet commented on the amount of fat the little bloke had laid down for his young age.

I did ask was he too fat, and the vet commented that its been a long time since he had seen such a layering of fat on one so young and that it was the way they should be.

When he got to the older boy, he asked if the mothers were related because he also had a good layering of fat for his age. He stirred me up by saying he was ready for the plate, and then licked his lips – cheeky bugger!

I also spoke to the vet about the majority of our girls cause us to be anxious for them after the birth because they leave large white patches of milk on the ground especially during the first couple of days they are standing around watching and bonding to their calves.

He asked if it continued into the second month and we told him sometimes we see the odd mother dripping as she walks along and not just in the second month but in the third and sometimes the fourth.

He said that we should be a little concerned and check them regularly as it is unusual for cows to be producing so much milk that they would leave white patches where they stood, and to “drip milk” during the lactation period.

He continued telling us to be very vigilant when weaning – which we are.

We have had to prolong the weaning process a few times by allowing some mothers to do a 10 minute feed starting every second day, then third day and so on to stop the excessive swelling of their udders.

He told us not to worry about whether the calves are getting enough as he has seen the inside of two of our calves and they are growing exceptionally well indicating the mothers are more than doing their job.

My concerns generated from this thread have been alleviated.

[Deleted]

Hi Louise
A 20 litre bucket filled with triple mix and cattle nuts and horse stud mixed through it, divided between approximately 5 horse tyre feeders for 5 Dexters is called a treat.
Re: rumen development
………………………………………………………………….
Developing a healthy rumen in your calves is important to ease the transition from a pre-ruminant to a ruminant animal.
Trials show that a calf's rumen develops earlier if the calf is fed solid feeds such as grains and meals as early as possible.
Grain produces butyrate and propionate when fermented and are essential for the development of rumen papilla. Ensure there is plenty of fresh, clean water available. Water increases the uptake of grains as well as multiplying the growth of micro – organisms, essential to a healthy rumen.
Early rumen development leads to less scours, healthier calves and better average daily weights. Calves with good rumen development are less likely to experience a drop in condition when fully weaned off milk.
…………………………………………………………………………..

Cheers
D

[ian]

Hi Donna

I believe that the info below is for hand reared calves and not for a calf that is being raised by its mother. If a cow cannot rear a calf to weaning at 7-8 months in an average season without being hand fed then that cow needs to be considered for culling.

I for one do not hand feed calves until weaning.

Ian

Nov 19, 2013 17:02:52 GMT -5 @donlindexters said:

Hi Louise
A 20 litre bucket filled with triple mix and cattle nuts and horse stud mixed through it, divided between approximately 5 horse tyre feeders for 5 Dexters is called a treat.
Re: rumen development
………………………………………………………………….
Developing a healthy rumen in your calves is important to ease the transition from a pre-ruminant to a ruminant animal.
Trials show that a calf's rumen develops earlier if the calf is fed solid feeds such as grains and meals as early as possible.
Grain produces butyrate and propionate when fermented and are essential for the development of rumen papilla. Ensure there is plenty of fresh, clean water available. Water increases the uptake of grains as well as multiplying the growth of micro – organisms, essential to a healthy rumen.
Early rumen development leads to less scours, healthier calves and better average daily weights. Calves with good rumen development are less likely to experience a drop in condition when fully weaned off milk.
…………………………………………………………………………..

Cheers
D

[Deleted]

Nov 19, 2013 18:17:14 GMT -5 RedRidge said:

20 liters of anything other than air for 5 dexters isn't a snack, it's enough food for an entire week! I am assuming this comment was meant to be a joke?

Do you know how big a 20 litre bucket is?

It barely comes up to my 5ft 3" knees.

one fifth of a 20 litre bucket of food for one week for one Dexter is enough??? - geesssssss our Dexters would starve.

[Deleted]

Nov 19, 2013 19:14:14 GMT -5 RedRidge said:

Nov 19, 2013 18:58:46 GMT -5 @donlindexters said:

Do you know how big a 20 litre bucket is?

It barely comes up to my 5ft 3" knees.

one fifth of a 20 litre bucket of food for one week for one Dexter is enough??? - geesssssss our Dexters would starve.

It's a little bigger than a 5 gal bucket... the largest size of three buckets I use to feed with for the 4 months of winter(no grass). It holds 30 lbs of pelleted feed/grain. At 1-1.5 lb/head/day (only in the winter when they are getting grass hay), 5 gal would last 5 adults 4-5 days. 20 liters would be a little more than that. My bad, I said a week but it wouldn't quite make it a week, probably only 5-6 days.
So yes... I assumed you were joking. If I had to feed that much a day for feed (let alone a snack) I would not have dexters.

True if you fill it to the brim with grain.

But cattle nuts and 2 x chicken scoops of diary meal is mixed through triple mix.
Triple mix is the largest component of the bucket which is steamed lucerne and oaten chaff with molasses horse feed

Obviously our interpretation of supplement feeding and treats is very different and while we dont have the health issues which appear to plague others on a yearly basis - we will continue doing what we are doing.

[carragheendexters]

Hi RedRidge,

I agree with the amounts you are suggesting, they sound about right for us too.

It has been a bad year rainwise for us, so we are almost complete feeding our cattle at the moment. We have pasture budgeted to make our pasture last the whole of summer. Summer is our dry season and pasture dies and won't grow again till we have an autumn break. Also we have had hardly any rain this year (looks like drought again on the horizon as Australia goes into an el nino weather pattern again) only 355ml (just under 12 inches, wow, looking at it in inches reminds me that is almost desert rainfall, desert is less than 10 inches per annum)

We strip graze, so that we don't damage the land, and our cows only get a narrow strip of pasture each day for a couple of hours.

So for more than supplementary feeding, they get 2 x 20litre buckets in the morning of Lucerne and grain pellets, and in the evening same again, another 2 x 20 litre buckets.

We are currently feeding 15 cows with calves at foot, ranging in age from 5-8 months.

RedRidge, FYI, cattle nuts, dairy meal and horse stud mix are prepared grain feeds available here in Australia.

regards Louise

[Gorignak]

My $.02 is concerning non dairy cow management when we are raising the calf on the cow, and dairy cow management when we are talking about milking or share milking. There is a vast difference, and it seems that the tribe is mixing their metaphors. It would serve all the novice readers, myself included, to collate and present your thoughts in context and in a logical order.

I have copied and read....highlighted and force fed to my kids, over 1000 pages of research papers, industry rubbish, and reasonably scholarly articles in the last 12 weeks.....I understand bias, and attempt to account for and eliminate it. Purina / Cargill / ADM, are going to lie to you, or at least conceal detrimental information...Cornell U is NOT. Most of what is being discussed here is best prefaced with proven facts concerning a cows physiology.

Thanks Ian.....Ring, ring....Hans, are you home ?? Hans forces his half frozen cattle to exist SOLELY ON HAY. Front to back, top to bottom, every day. He, very presciently described in another post the difficulty some "pet" Dexters had in acclimating to his regimen. Some take a year...I would suggest a concerted probiotic program to assist in rapid reorientation towards cellulosic digestion.

Feeding any grain.....any time.....for any reason is detrimental to the rumen's development of a active flora necessary to digest cellulose. The only grain cows would naturally get is seed heads in season. It may have to be done to accommodate deteriorating weather conditions, overstocking, convenience, or personal preference. BUT, no matter WHAT the reason…it still is what it is….NOT THE BEST NUTRITIONAL PROGRAM FOR FORAGING CELLULOSE DIGESTERS……or COWS as you call them.

EVERY MOUTHFUL OF GRAIN LESSENS THE NUTRITIONAL VALUE OF HAY OR PASTURE. This is not what I think, or what I believe, or I want you to believe…THIS IS ABSOLUTE, INCONTROVERTIBLE, FACT. If we can deal with that, then we can discuss what each of us has to do in their particular situation to ensure growth, maintenance and health.

Alfalfa/Lucerne is the single best augmentation. Corn is simply the worst. There are lots of in betweens. In our part of the country, ALL cows get only, and raise calves only, on grass....BUT....in terrible conditions like the past three years, some farmers rely on augmentation. The best is "range cubes"....your "cow nuts". If they are formulated correctly, they do not reduce the cellulosic processing, THEY AUGMENT OR INCREASE it. This is through the blending of non-starchy components of grains, extracted in various processing. Corn is bad....corn gluten meal is sort of okay. Look up the nutritional profile of ANY product that you are going to put down your cattle's gullet and make a decision based on FACTS.

GRASS fed cows get grass only
Pet cows get grain.
Dairy cows get grain, unless one has bred religiously and meticulously for grass digestion and milk production. It can be done....
Grass fed cow's calves get milk and pasture/hay.
Pet calves get grain.
Dairy calves get milk replacer, pasteurized tank milk, or pasteurized goat’s milk....at two months they are forced to switch to HIGH protein, pelleted feed 26% - 30% protein/high fat. This carries then through the normal nursing cycle until the decision is made to wean them to hay only.

I have printed out upwards of 500 pages of studies and research papers on the nutritional needs of dairy cows and their calves. It ain't rocket science... but it has a far greater complexity than is being afforded it here. If you have the cow that can milk sufficiently, and raise a good calf, and are so inclined, then that is your path. If you are going to share milk, or force the calf in any way out of a normal cycle, then you have to understand rumen chemistry, nutritional balance, protein vs energy, and a host of other clearly defined characteristics of a sound diet for both the cow and the calf.

Have to do this in chunks…the short days have us scrambling. This part was an aside from the original topic of measuring, gauging, controlling, monitoring, evaluating, a cow’s milk production…and the calf’s response. BUT, there has to be a baseline of fact that supercedes Gene’s random third hand musings, and the generalizations of a “half bucket” …..quarter bucket” ….”one scoop”……. “ a few handfuls”.

Crikey…..half the time we are poor as church mice and WE have a half dozen accurate scales, That is so we don’t throw money away . Inputs, Outlay, and Results are what is important…..NOT warm fuzziness and personalities.

Mike

[Gorignak]

The dairy information I have accessed counsels VERY strongly against feeding a calf "tank milk" or unpasteurized cow's milk. As I read it, the bacterial count differs greatly from the bacteria normally picked up from the teat. It is indicated that cow's milk is ideal feed for a calf....but that pasteurization is necessary unless sanitation, handling and storage are Grade A+ or better.

To answer the question of WHY MILK REPLACER ....Simple, economics. An $86./ 50 lb bag of milk replacer substitutes for 400 lbs/45 gallons of milk. The milk, at its least value to a homeowner, is worth $3/gal....most Dexter owners would scoff at $4/gal and the norm that I find in our area is $5/gal. So, the $86. bag of milk replacer is worth $250.+ of Dexter milk & cream. I have gagged down my last mouthful of the dreck that passes for any but the most expensive cheese nowadays. The only edible cheese in our stores is the Cabot Extra Sharp Cheddar at $4-$5 / lb. It is JUST barely worthy of an "extra sharp" label. There is no option for any wide choice of speciality and/or imports. When found, they are in the $10. / lb and up range. Our friends in Paris won't hesitate to dig in an elbow at the mention of cheese and ask. " Voulez vous dire 'Kraft' "....... "Delicieux" !!!
I need the milk. At risk is a calf's health and life....NOT a $125. Holstein calf....but a Dexter calf, possibly worth $800-$1200 or more in short order. Needless to say, we are exploring all the options, and possible problems BEFORE the calves are born. All the "Fact or Friction" excerpts in the earlier part of this thread were seen and read by us as we began to research potential cattle to start the project with.

One intriguing strategy used a spreadsheet to show that if a person was set up right, a small herd of milk goats could provide very low cost milk to feed several calves very comfortably. The goats could be pastured on the roughest, brushy land....as in, my entire farm at present, and return at milking time with a bounty of perfect milk for the calves. The same milking machine, with different inflations, could milk the goats quickly. Sanitation and handling protocols could be developed that eliminated the pasteurization step. IF there was any fear of a disruption in the process, the calves could be fed with 50% goat milk / 50% milk replacer. Then, in case of some unforeseen problem, the switch to all milk replacer would not be as traumatic to their digestion as changes normally are. IN EVERY CASE, it was stressed that trying to switch types or brands of replacer in mid nursing/lactation was inevitably disaster prone.

I will not share-milk first calf heifers. I doubt that we will share milk at all. The share milk strategy is not a, your half/my half, strategy with a Jersey or Guernsey....The calf gets ALL that it can possibly handle and there is ample left for a family. Only Gene's third hand account gets close to the 3+ gallons needed to pull that off with Dexters.
Folks....the numbers again...Sassy gained 2.25 MEASURED pounds every day for over 90 days.That took 2.75+ gallons/day. For the first two weeks...WE HAD TO MILK AT LEAST A GALLON TO KEEP MUM FROM EXPLODING. We were planning on a big "share-milk" program, starting about month 3. We milked Dorothy EVERY day to train her....but didn't remove the calf at all. By the time the crisis began...we were getting far less than 1 qt/day. RIGHT THERE IS WHERE LACK OF EXPERIENCE DOOMED US. There is a lot to be read into that data, and we were only reading PART of it. AND, we got some of it right. In order to keep up the rapid growth, Sassy was going to need ample augmentation with solid food starting at 90 days.....Dorothy HAD raised another calf for us...a chondro positive bull, L'il Burp. He is no Goliath...small and obviously slower growing. We were feeding him a little solids at 2 months old....la-de-da....oh, he's just being socialized.....Now that we look back.....he was eating 2-3 lbs of pelleted feed a day at 4-5 months, and spending lots of time at the 26% protein tub, and the hay rack.

So, how many of you KNOW your cow's output in volume and duration. The observation that the "calf is doing fine" is not quantifiable. Will there be those to jump in and offer periodic weigh-ins and recorded growth ??....Please !!,that is what is needed. Because, my next question is ...... what is your calf's growth-rate genetics ?? This is a complex orchestration of MULTIPLE genetic traits simultaneously.
Louise got it right....take worries about A2 and and park them out back....it is not even remotely important to anyone who has not addressed a whole raft of other genetic parameters. A2 is now off my list of "lose sleep over".....I want volume and duration.

I DON'T care THAT it has been done, or what it says on a T-shirt....I care HOW it has been done, and how willing you are to pass that information on to those like us who are eager to learn. We ARE going to learn....with, or in spite of assistance...that isn't on me.

Thanks again Louise. Alana had me feel the two udders....both are high and tight and beautiful. Dorothy's udder, however, has a lot more "fatty" tissue in it....it sort of feels like there is more to milk.....but, there is not. Sheila's udder is about the same, or even a little less prominent....but when it deflates there is little but skin up there. Sheila could be a 3 gal/day milker this Feb. She was 2 gal/day on her first lactation.......BUT if the genetics threw us a curve, because of the close kinship....if little (36") Sheila was to have a non chondro calf with the same genetics as Sassy.....NO CREAM FOR MY COFFEE. The calf would need every drop after the first month........OUCH. Thus.....Milk Replacer and all the attendent difficulties and concerns.

Mike

[Gorignak]

RedRidge....MOST articles and summaries of studies that I found warned against the use of unpasteurized "tank milk". In the articles that were geared to small, home "hand milked" operations, the warning was even more emphatic. The confusion between "oh, the calf is sucking on a dirty teat", and the bacteria that can build IN the milk between milking, straining, cooling, storage and rewarming was clearly outlined.
In general...I stand behind my "ridiculous" statement.
Thanks for the agreement on cheap cheese. Cabot was top rated last month by Consumer's Report. It is barely passable and a far cry from the fine New England Sharp Cheddar of my youth.

I really don't give a wit about WHAT you have done. My interest is How and Why things are being done. In an earlier thread, the scoffing at the use of a CMT to monitor / detect mastitis, and urging the purchase of a $350.+ mastitis detector was ill advice, and beyond the means of the AVERAGE small milker. That precision device was OBVIOUSLY the best choice for a "larger" dairy, and when we milk more than 4-6 cows it will be on my Xmas list. A CMT will serve anyone with one or several cows adequately when accompanied by sound sanitation, handling and consultation with their vet. A complete CMT, useful for hundreds of tests, is UNDER $15.

Here is a suggestion... I attempted to involve the knowledgeable once before in a conversation concerning milking and small dairy protocol. It was noted that request was being ignored....and this thread was started.
SO.......... I am a VERY good furniture maker. My work is in prestigious settings around the world. I am an even better furniture finisher. I have written many articles for Trade and Hobbyist magazines.
BUT..... for $11. I will send ANYONE a 40 page PDF of EVERY finishing technique and trick that I know....EVERY source for supplies, and EVERY amount, temperature, and method that I use for preparation, staining and finishing. I have sold over
10, 000 copies of my 40 page "Finishing Guide".... I can't count the additional information requests and inquiries I answer each week. Hey.....$110,000. over the course of 10 years is not chump change to ME.....My guide only took me 3 days to write !!! At $3500./hour it is the best money I have made. It doesn't cost a thing to be generous...it PAYS.
Every bit of information I possess is available to ANYONE, ANYTIME....except my customer list. I'm NEVER afraid of telling someone how to do what I do...and, as soon as someone does it as well as I do, I'll have them over for lunch.

How about 40 pages of Small Dairy, Milk Handling, and Cheese making tips and caveats from you. I've got $20. to send off for that. There are probably 5000 others ( out of 314 million) who would love to have that info on hand as they were organizing their "Home Milk Cow" experience. We are building an entire library of shop guides and videos for sale, to $$$ pad our meager Social Security checks , and to build a dairy, and buy cows with. Our past talents and experiences are a gold mine...for us.......anyway.
How about fewer pejoratives and more, considered, lucid instructions here on the forum. I'd be delighted to see any "free" material that you offer, and would rather have it being proffered in a more civil manner at my first mention of needing that precise information. I have repeatedly prefaced any post with the fact that we were searching furiously for information..We were not born with that skill set....but I'm a real quick study.