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Post by carragheendexters on Nov 15, 2013 18:33:51 GMT -5
Hi Everyone,
this one is for Mike- Gorignak.
Mike, I've noticed twice now you have brought up the volume of milk production in Dexters and nobody has picked up and answered your posts. A phone conversation yesterday from a friend who has Dexters, breaks cows into handmilking and then sells them for house cows got me thinking.
She was bemoaning the lack of selection in Dexters for milkiness.
So I think this will also answer your question and highlight the lack of milky cows in Australia.
Basicly, most people who breed Dexters wouldn't have a clue as to how much milk their cow can produce, as they have never milked it and probably never will, and don't really care.
IMO this is a real problem when we are trying to market Dexters as small acres dual purpose cattle, and as you in US seem to be doing is selling Dexters as house cows to homesteaders. It is a little hard to sell an animal as a house cow or her progeny when she has never been milked to know if she can even produce sufficient milk to feed even more than her own calf.
I recently read on another forum a new Dexter owner that was having problems. She had been sold this cow as a heifer as a prospective house cow. After calving she was only producing a cup or 2 of milk after locking the calf away, the owner thought there was a health issue and got the vet in. It ended up she was a poor producer, the vet identified also that the calf wasn't getting enough milk either and wasn't thriving.
Unless you actually milk a cow and know how much milk she produces you cannot select for milky cows destined to be house cows. Let's get things in perspective here. People are selecting for A2/A2, what point if the animal can't even produce enough milk to support her calf and provide for the household. How about we start selecting for milk production first, we seem to have the cart before the horse situation.
The other thing to consider when thinking about milk production is how long through the lactation that your cow has good volume. If you wean early (unless it's so you can collect all the milk) how would you know if she is a good milker. I see on this forum that calves are regularly weaned early, even as young as 5-6 months. Patti wrote on another post about leaving weaning till at least 8 months, to give a calf a good start in life. A cow should be able to do that comfortably without detriment to herself. If you wean early a good milker could have issues with ,mastitis and trouble drying her up. If you wean early and your cow dries up easily, then she probably wasn't a good milker.
Different lines do have different production. Mike , when you go ahead and increase your number, consider getting animals from know milking herds. The UK has such animals, and they have had commercial milking herds over the years, don't know about in the US, but select from these animals with track records if you can.
At a visit to a local Dexter dairy for cheese making (they no longer milk Dexters, now buy their milk in) they talked about their different cows, and about how there is so much variation between the cows production and length of lactation.
Their best cow, a black non chondro cow milked 10litres (just under 2 1/2 gallons) for a long lactation, and their worst, a dun chondro carrier, 3 litres (just over 1/2 gallon) after 3 months lactation. The bull they were using to try and increase production was by an English AI sire from a milking herd in UK. They were flushing the good producing cow to this bull hoping to increase herd numbers of good milkers.
There is a lot of propaganda out there about Dexters, cruise the internet and check out different Dexter sites, there are often amazing claims of what Dexters do. On one forum I read someone who was thinking about getting a Dexter had read on the internet that a Dexter milks 16-18 litres (3 1/2 gallons) and dress out to 2/3 of an angus carcasse. In their dreams LOL.
Never believe what you read on the internet, most of it is bullxxxit.
The problem is that people read up on the internet, and then regurgitate what they read without any substantiation, whether it's fact or fiction.
Recently a new person in our group prepared a flyer for a promotional field day, with the members of our group on one side of the page and on the side a bit of a blurb about Dexters on the other. The first paragraph he had written that Dexters are a European breed. WHAT!!!!! He had read it on the internet so believed that it was true. Commonsense hadn't prevailed and made him doubt what he had read.
I believe that Dexter breeders need to start being honest with themselves, have a bit of a reality check. Don't promote Dexters for what they aren't .
If you are going to promote Dexters as good milkers and great house cows at least start milking them and know what they can do before you make false claims.
Yes, milk production is related to energy intake, but a cow can't produce greater than what she is genetically programmed for.
And yes, we do milk different cows occasionally, when I get the time, or if a cow is producing too much milk and at risk of mastitis, or we also do put an extra dairy bull calf on a cow to drink the milk, and value add by getting a great veal calf. I do know what my cows produce, which ones are better milkers than the others.
I have a newly calved 2nd calver, I'm quite worried as she is such a heavy producer, in subsequent calvings whether her udder construction is good enough to hold. She does have a good udder, but being a chondro carrier and having a very deep udder, it hangs too low. I have only milked her a few times to relieve the pressure, no time at the moment to be committed to full time milking. First milking and we didn't totally milk her as I didn't want to exacerbate the problem 12 litres ( a bit over 2 1/2 gallons), so she is a good producer. I have taken photos of her udder for reference, if I ever work out how to get them on photobucket I will try posting them here.
So Mike, a simple answer to your previous posts instead of this rambling nonsense, most Dexter owners and breeders wouldn't have a clue what their cows produce.
regards Louise
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Gorignak
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Post by Gorignak on Nov 15, 2013 20:07:20 GMT -5
Louise.....One hearty..... Good onya'..... for that beautifully scripted intro to the best kept worst secret about Dexters. THANK YOU...it is time....
Folks, get out your milk records (you do keep records ??) Carol D....please, back to the archives and let's talk about what was done at the notable Dexter Dairies. Gene and Judy, relax, and let the discussion work around the fact that most of the high milking Dexters probably had British upgrades in their recent history.....NO, I'm not supporting or condemning it. It just is. Does it affect the "Dexter" in them. Can we have a honest discussion about "what is" and avoid the "what should be" ??
The question is....Can we have substantial and satisfactory milk production from Dexters. What should we aim for?? Does the efficiency of the chondro positive cow work in their favor ??
We are doing okay....milking 2....one long and one chondro carrier. The long cow is a miserable flash-in-the-pan. Her poor production PROBABLY contributed to the loss of her non chondro calf. it gained 2.25 lbs / day on the first 90 days of lactation. But in retrospect....it was probably eating anything it could get into its mouth to continue the rapid growth. The non chondro cow is now at about a quart / day, which would translate into 6 months of milking. She had a massive output at first....easily 2.5 gal/ day, then dropped off precipitously.
The chondro positive tortoise to her hare, is Sheila.....2 gal/day for many months....1.5 gal/ day for the rest of 10 months...and now IN HER 11th month, she is still 2 quarts /day. She gets dried up next week, and calves Feb 22. This is a TINY 36" FIRST CALF HEIFER. We hope it was her sire, OZ ...because her near twin , Matilda, is due to calf 10 days before her. We have decided to prep everything for bottle feeding, and are going to remove the calves as soon as they have drained the colostrum. The 2 chondro carriers are tick fat....Sheila has been producing on 2 lb of Alfalfa pellets a day, and turned loose around the farm to eat all the good grass.
Let's hear about milking experiences, and bulls that help. What bloodlines have the traits intact ?? On and on..... I'll put together some of our info on WordPad and post when my thoughts are collected.
Thanks Louise... well see if we can get some honest dialog going.....I need 20 milkers....I'll settle for ones with Sheila's output....but I'd like another half, or full gallon more. The sweet spot is somewhere between 2 and 3 gal/day for 5 months.
Longer than I planned.....
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Post by tonhou on Nov 15, 2013 20:31:29 GMT -5
Louise, here are a couple of quotes that I have copied out of other forums previously relating to bulls that are more "milky" - I think that the first one is from Carol Davidson:
"Bulls that were known for high yield and lovely udders were; lucifer of knotting, saturn of knotting, riverhill saturn's galaxy, bedford romarc rambler, hiyu renown magician. All are AI bulls, and there may be some of their semen around still. Other AI bulls that were pretty good were Glencara Paddy, Hiyu Salty Rambler, Bradner Hilltop Dunston." (http://tech.dir.groups.yahoo.com/group/DexterCattleADCA/message/8925)
"The AI bulls I have found with RM (Register of Merit - UK - superior milk) animals in their pedigree is:
Moomin Posh – his father is Sarum Bullrush RM
Knotting Leo 3rd – mother is Knotting L´ladysat RM (Saturn RM/Little Ladydale RM)
Elmwwod Mackoy – mother Elmwood Meg´s father is Knotting Saturn RM (Sarum Bullrush RM)"
(http://www.dextercattleforsale.co.uk/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=2771&start=15)
This is not addressing your concern about hard data as to what milk can be produced. There are a number of posts in another section of this forum that have individual experiences, but they are all somewhat ad-hoc as everyone does it a bit differently - calf taken off overnight, or not taken off at all etc.
That's why I am also interested in the South African comparison of breeds and the possibility that they have done some formal comparisons in the milk area.
--Tony
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Post by wagradexters on Nov 16, 2013 2:59:34 GMT -5
Of 30 cows who calved this year, we have only 3 real "problem" cows. One is the daughter of an Outlaw cow. She has two half-sisters who do not require so much extra attention. The excess milk genes may come from her sire, (T.Reu Grande X double-Lucifer cow). This problem cow has turned off the best weaner of the mob for 10 years. She is currently rearing her 11th calf with her udder holding out nicely.
The other two "problems" are both from Hedgehog dams, sired by Llanfairs Finnigan and Hiyu Salty Rambler respectively.
While they all fatten a good weaner others do not make extra work having to relieve their discomfort and rescue their udders. These three cows mentioned would each provide amply for a family , as well as rear a good calf.
So as we are living in a society where everything is somebody else's fault, I'll blame Carol for my workload. She is used to being blamed for everything.
Margaret
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Post by karenp on Nov 16, 2013 7:33:21 GMT -5
Other than Mike, how many people here do regularly milk?
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Gorignak
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Post by Gorignak on Nov 16, 2013 15:26:24 GMT -5
Where to start...??
Okay, the good news. After 16 months with Dexters, and watching the interaction on the forum I've learned a lot. The breed has a specialized set of characteristics that are valuable to small scale owners....(pun intended). We'll cover those good traits after.......
The bad news.... there is a plethora of misleading information and misrepresentation that is allowed to go unchallenged and replicate freely on the internet.In many of the prominent breeders defense, this is probably more the "fault" of the mid level and smaller breeders. But the "sins of omission" are represented well in the lack of intellectual energy, by those that know better, to openly dispell some of the most pervasive half-truths.
All the convoluted banter on pedigrees, upgrades, genetic dysfunctions, and heritage are tedious, esoteric chatterings, masking some serious errors in tactics and strategy.They are a means to an end, not the end in itself. For some, the end may be what is on paper. For me, the goal is what is in the milk bucket, and hanging on the hooks. Avoiding and obscuring the truth will see this little gold mine play out very quickly. People are easily fooled...THE MARKET IS NOT EASILY FOOLED.
MOST Dexters available for purchase will not provide adequate milk for the calf and a family with 2 children. If I'm wrong...PROVE me otherwise.......hard data preferred, sworn first hand testimony acceptable.......second hand "smoke" is just that. Not only that, there is a percentage of Dexters out there who are hard put to adequately feed a fast growing calf. It is funny that Louise and now I, can relate nearly the same story.
The calf we lost, Sassy, grew at a RECORDED rate of 2.25 lbs / day for 111 days. She was 45 lbs at birth, and 310+ lbs at 115 days. We weighed her weekly, and the final weighing was at the vets, as she was going downhill. There is a cascade of errors in her loss, some of which were my fault, and I have to use them constructively, to avoid future mishaps.
About 2 1/2 months old
As she passed two months, Sassy was very actively grazing with mom. And, at least pretending, to "burp" up cud and re-chew like an adult. She seemed exceptionally precocious. We would allow her to stay with mom day and night, but would bring mom into the stanchion and milk with the others at 5 AM and PM. I think we were getting about a quart total from Dorothy. At 80 - 95 days, we were feeding Sassy 1 lb of calf manna and and 1 lb of alfalfa pellets daily, and ready to begin penning her away from the cow at night, and taking 50%.
At about the 75 day mark, we probably began to interpret the numbers incorrectly. Dorothy's milk production WAS NOT peaking....in fact, it had leveled out and would soon begin to decline. Sassy was probably beginning to cast about for whatever she could eat, exploring everything that caught her eye....eating feed and hay and grazing. If the disaster had not ended the calf's life, I think the decline in growth would have become evident in the next 30 days. Sassy ate some metal, somewhere...punctured her rumen, on to her heart and ....GONE.
Correct me if I'm wrong....but it takes about 10 lbs OF MILK TO MAKE 1 LB OF CALF. That translates into 22-23 lbs of milk / day for the first 60 - 75 days. Then we are in the realm of Sherri's "unknown quantities"....I don't know exactly where the milk decline started, and where the grain/grass/hay was trying to kick in.
23 LBS MILK....@ 8.6 lbs / gal ......2.7 gallons / day. + the quart or so that we were getting in the "training exercise" DOROTHY WAS, FOR A WHILE, PUTTING OUT 3 GALLONS A DAY. Now, with the calf gone, she is about 3 cups 2X day. NO....she didn't "dry up" after the calf was pulled. We milked her the day the calf began its decline and noticed that we were getting just at 5 quarts / day !! She had begun to decline already.
Dorothy ( the early good/late poor milker) is also the Mother of Sheila and Matilda. As noted earlier in this post. Sheila lost her bulldog first calf, and has been milking like a pro ever since. We are in our 11th month of milking....( .....she WILL get over 90 days dried up before calving on March 22 ). Her output, with no calf, has been wonderful....2 - 2+ gal/day for 4-5 months......1.5 gal day for 3-4 months......1 gal day up to 10 months....and now, about 2.5 - 3 quarts / day. I'LL GET THE EXACT NUMBERS...WE WEIGHED EVERY MILKING.
THOUGH THAT SEEMS ADMIRABLE AND SUFFICIENT.... if you look at the hard numbers.....IT IS BARELY ADEQUATE for a calf like Sassy's phenomenal growth.....NONE FOR THE KIDS, AND NO CREAM FOR DAD'S COFFEE.
So, to sum up this overly long, soon to be ignored chain of observations.......ALMOST NOBODY KNOWS WHAT THEIR COW IS PUTTING OUT. SOME HAVE COWS THAT ARE NOT EVEN MEETING THE CALF'S REQUIREMENTS. THERE ARE FEW DEXTERS OUT THERE THAT CAN FULFILL THE FIRST LINE ON THE SALES BROCHURE..." Thou shalt produce enough milk for the calf and family.".
Back to the good news...... The 2+ gallons of milk / day that Sheila (chondro pos/36") is putting out....IS BEING DONE ON A PHENOMENALLY SMALL AMOUNT OF FEED AND PASTURE. I'll share a little event. We put the new Guernsey in with the bull, and removed all the other Dexters. They....4 more of them, had been eating the grass in a 4.5 acre paddock all summer...AND I HAD TO MOW IT ONCE TO PUSH IT BACK TO TENDER, EASY EATING. It had just raced past 5 Dexters...they couldn't keep up. Well, put in one 650 lb Guernsey, who was on a mission to regain lost ground (she is almost 900 lbs now).
WOW....she leveled that grass in a month. Her manure piles were the size of the Pyrenees dogs.....We were stunned.
Solution.....It just became clear......I'm pulling the calf off of EVERY cow we raise or buy for one milking cycle and bottle raising it. THEN and only then will I have data sufficient to plan around, or to pass on to whomever we sell her to as a milk cow. I think that the failure to accurately represent these cows milking ability is a serious problem that should be addressed. In 28 years of furniture making I have NEVER had a dissatisfied customer. My absolute guarantee is that if you don't feel like you have received more than you expected....send it back for a full refund. Whatever it takes, I'll do this effort the same....or quit.
Let's throw that at the wall and see what sticks...... 
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Post by carragheendexters on Nov 16, 2013 19:06:59 GMT -5
Hi Mike,
2 more traps for young players. One in hindsight you now are aware of the other maybe not.
I have heard this comment on many occasions, "My cow produce so much milk, the calf is on there feeding all the time trying to drink it all!"
NUH!!! The calf is on there feeding all the time because it is hungry. The cow doesn't produce much milk, so the calf keeps on going back to get a bit of something in its belly. With a cow that produces a good quantity and quality of milk, her calf will only feed occasionally, you may only see it feed 2-3 times a day, that is because at each feed it get s a bely full of milk that keeps it satisfied for hours.
The other is "My calf is so fast developing and growing up, it is trying to eat its mothers feed already" That is because it is hungry, not enough milk to keep it satisfied. Mike, yYou found out that one.
A 3 month old calf has little need for anything but milk and a bit of grass pick, if the cow is milking right. If you have to put out feed ina calf creep or whatever, you better look at your cows pretty hard, and make some tough decisions. A cow should be producing her most milk at this stage right through to 6 months lactation.
We had that with some of our first Dexters, cows that couldn't do a good job on a calf. They went. We only keep those that can feed a calf well.
We find now, that our calves don't try to eat their mothers pellets till they get to about 5 or 6 months of age, then they start experimenting with the solid concentrates.
At least you have learnt this tough lesson Mike, better than being ignorant to it for many years.
regards Louise
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Post by carragheendexters on Nov 16, 2013 19:11:21 GMT -5
Hi Margaret,
Is the old girl the same cow that you have to milk every year? How did Bonfire go this year for Edith? Did she produce a nice calf and milk well again this year?
Maybe Mike needs to be looking at these lines when he starts getting his cows together for his dairy. Have to say I really like what Hedgehog does with udders.
Like your attitude, pass the blame. LOL
regards Louise
PS, surely you have the time to milk everyday? Hahahah.
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Post by carragheendexters on Nov 16, 2013 23:11:20 GMT -5
Hi Tony,
some of those AI bulls that you have listed are available for general use in Australia, the English ones Moomin Posh, Knotting Leo 3rd, and also Bradner Hilltop Dunstan, and Bedford Romarc Rambler. Another bull Volvo Lodge Santilla is also supposed to produce milky cows, he goes back to Lucifer of Knotting. Whether straws are still available for purchase, that is another matter. We also have had Woodmagic Hedgehog III available, I have used him and have a bull by him who throws nice udders and milky cows ( the bulls mother was a very milky cow, easily grew out her own twin heifers and a dairy bull calf for the first 3 months of lactation)
Hmmm, can't remember whether it is in Beryl Rutherford's book or where I have seen the photo of that English cow suckling 4 calves. Help me here Margaret W, where have I seen that photo?
Basicly it boils down to whether you intentionally select for milky cows using bulls known for the trait, or don't know if your cows are milky or not and primarily select for every other trait.
I wish I could find the English dairy herd recording data for Dexters, which you would find interesting Tony. Can't ever find pieces of paper when I want them, my house is a shambles.
Help here again Margaret W if you read this. Are you able to post this data?
regards Louise
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Post by carragheendexters on Nov 16, 2013 23:27:48 GMT -5
OK Mike something else for you to ponder, another misconception I forgot to talk about.
Common misconception, my cow has a big udder, she must produce a lot of milk. Maybe, depends. If the udder is large and fleshy, no, she won't produce much milk. The udder is too full of fat and not enough milk producing tissue and glands, the udder space is taken up with non-productive tissue.
The type of udder you want is a lovely soft and supple udder that is collapsible. Before milking the udder should be inflated and enlarged, but after milking or after the calf has fed, it should collapse down to look pretty much like an empty bag, just a bunch of skin hanging there. A good way to test this and compare, milk out totally only one rear quarter (easiest to see on a rear quarter) then stand behind and compare the 2 rear quarters, there should be a vast difference in their looks, one still swollen and enlarged the other shrunken down to an empty sack look.
If you milk your cow out totally and it still feels hard and full, then this is a fleshy udder. Not much room for milk production.
Fat heifers often end up with fleshy udders, they lay down fat in the udder as a young calf and it replaces milk tissue. Look to dairies when rearing your heifers, keep them well fed and healthy, but lean, never fat. Hard to do if you are rearing them on a cow that produces lots of milk. It's a catch 22 situation. Milk your cows and hand rear your heifers as you plan to do and your cooking with gas.
Just more for you to consider, you must be sick of my ramblings by now, but gives you food for thought.
regards Louise
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Post by wagradexters on Nov 17, 2013 2:46:51 GMT -5
Louise, one such photo that immediately comes to mind is Sararush, full sister to Saturn of Knotting.
Bonfire is due to calve at the end of this month. Yes Louise the same old girl, the would-be dog disemboweller, sister to Bonfire.
Sold Fellow today, his heifers are ready to join, they all have a good handful of 4square teats, and soft loose folds up high in the escutcheon.
The best udders are horizontal from the navel back. Hedgehog does quite a bit of that.
Not even looking for data Louise, all safely stashed in evacuation boxes ahead of fire season, sorry.
Margaret
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Post by carragheendexters on Nov 17, 2013 6:13:58 GMT -5
Hi Margaret,
maybe that's the one I'm thinking of, just can't remember where I have seen it.
I hope Bonfire has a nice heifer for Edith, or would she prefer a steer for the freezer?
Oh, I didn't realise she was Bonfire's sister, makes sense then both being good milkers.
That's ok about the data, understandable being packed up. It's going to be an 'interesting" summer, as per our neighbours description. We've got the trailer already for evac for the dogs. Bare machinery shed paddock for the cows, and the sheep close to the yards.
Tried to get the cows to eat out the driveway but it's mainly barley grass and they won't touch it. Would love to mow it down but too risky right now. The season has fast forwarded, everything here is looking more like Jan instead of Nov. Just wishing we'd had some rain, too late now.
Had a thunder storm this morning and Don was away in Sydney, started to stress that I may have had to evacuate on my own.
Already had 3 grass seed issues, the young red bull, a ewe, and today a cow. UGH!!!
Sorry I've digressed from the thread, should have sent this private.
Stay safe.
regards Louise
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Gorignak
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Post by Gorignak on Nov 17, 2013 17:28:10 GMT -5
;)Hey, you three ...Tony, Margaret, Louise....did you see "Close Encounters of the Third Kind ?? Remember near the end when Richard Dreyfus' character was being questioned by the French scientist....He asked "Who's in charge"? When told that the Frenchman was in charge, he did a perfect astounded look and blurted out...."Him, he's not even American" 
You guys aren't even American ??  How can you have the answers.....   
I don't belong here...I've told Louise that several times.
On to business..... Red Ridge got it right. Most are "hobby" interested. And the current market addresses that. Well, No such luck here. So, I have to sort through 2 or 3 more layers of unexpected BS to get where I want to be. I sure can't pick up Dexters willy-nilly and try and milk them. I won't live long enough to see that idea work. I'm doing this for the kids...we gave them the farm, and are spending our remaining time setting that up. They are ACE furniture makers .....and have a worldwide following for their art work.
..........an "old timer" once, under the influence of some home brew, was telling us about following stories around to old spots looking for buried money or lost "treasure". With perfect seriousness, he proclaimed that,".....you have to take them old stories and try and separate the fact from the friction"
That's about where I am now...I have to separate the fact from the friction......
Try these....Fact or Friction. I copied these from the first 4 pages of a Google search for articles on Dexters. I'll see you at the end of them...........
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Dexters can reasonably be expected to produce 2 to 2.5 gallons (7.6 to 9.5 litres) per day. Wiki
They will produce enough milk to feed 2–3 calves.....Wiki
Pound for pound, Dexter’s cost less from birth to the finished product. Economically, these animals have the ability of turning forage into rich milk, and quality lean meat. Amer Cattleman
A milking Dexter cow can produce more milk for its weight than any other breed. The daily yield averages from 1 to 3 gallons per day .....Amer Cattleman
One Dexter cow will give about 1 to 2 gallons of milk a day, a much more manageable amount for a single family than the 8 to 10 gallons a typical Holstein yields. Mother Earth
Dexter cows produce about 1 1/2 to 2 gallons a day of about 4 percent butterfat milk — over a full 305-day lactation-when fed for production. (Some exceptional cows can put out up to 5 gallons per day at the height of their lactation.) When producing just for the calf, the cow's milk production will adjust down to the calf's needs. Many small farmers share the milk output with the calf. Dexters have also been used successfully as "nurse cows," providing milk to two or three calves. Mother Earth
..... dairy breed and dual-purpose minis, Dexters give plenty of sumptuous, high-protein milk—enough for today’s smaller household and then some. And Dexter cows give 1.5 to 3 gallons of roughly 4 percent butterfat milk daily...... Hobby Farms.com
The beauty of owning Dexter cows is that despite their small size, their milk output matches those of full-sized cows. They can yield up to 20 liters of milk a day, although 10 liters is considered average.
Country Farms Lifestyles
We do know that, being dual purpose, a Dexter can feed her calf and supply enough milk for your family, multiple suckle foster calves, or be milked for production. Dexter Cattle Australia
Dexters calve very well and do not require vaccinations in most areas because they are so hardy.
Article in Wise Traditions R.M Belforti
....the UK has had a number of Dexter dairy herds in the past and a small number still survive there and elsewhere. Dexter milk can also be used to raise calves – Dexter cows can easily suckle two calves a year and have been known to suckle up to three or four, or even more! J. Patterson Dex-Info site
A number of researchers say they produce proportionately more beef for the amount of grain they eat.
"It's definitely economics," Ms. Coad said. "These guys need less food.'' Wall Street Journal
Raising Dexter cattle for either milk or meat can both be profitable. They are known as prolific milkers and produce a significantly higher milk yield than other breeds. T.Smith Ezine@rticles
A Dexter cow can produce more milk for its weight than any other breed, averaging 1.5-2.5 gallons (5.7-9.5 lbs.) per day! Countryside & Small Stock Journal
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I'm back... As you can see, there is a bit of both. Now, to do some semantic math.
Many of the articles DO represent the accurate expectations for a good Dexter milker....BUT THEY HILARIOUSLY OMIT THE CALF'S CONSUMPTION. Others, that include the calf, seem to allocate about 1 gallon/day for the calf....NOT ON MY WATCH.... Sassy was consuming over 2.5 gal/day....and when it slowed, POW... 3 or 4 CALVES ?? HUH.... 
I am keenly aware of the udder size, configuration and output being independent characteristics...AND, drawing on 40 years of watching calves locally....YES, D_MN IT, they should nurse, then lay in the sun....Sassy was not frantic, but she was grazing by mom at 2 months.WE LET HER PASS FREELY UNDER THE ELECTRIC WIRE, AND SHE WOULD HEAD TO THE SOFT, LUSH GRASS IN THE ROAD DITCHES AND ORCHARD.
UDDER CONFORMATION
ACCURATE MEASURE OF OUTPUT
ACCURATE DETERMINATION OF DURATION
CALF GROWTH GENETICS !!!!
I'm going to pause this one here and see if there are further thoughts. What I want to touch on next is the frantic pace and direction that the genetics are being combined and subtracted in the USA, due to the surge in intere$t. Louise, I am overjoyed and sick to my stomach at your prescient observation....WHAT GOOD DOES IT DO TO WORRY ABOUT A2 BEFORE YOU HAVE ESTABLISHED A SUITABLE VOLUME OF OUTPUT.....and you are so right......first kick is the mule's fault, second is mine.
My main mistake was thinking that the "general", the "average", the "median", milk output with Dexters was fairly well defined, established, and somewhat universal........... 1 TO 3 GALLONS IS A 300% DIFFERENCE. The variability that I have now seen, and the near universal uncertainty of output is tied directly to that trait being at the bottom of MOST lists of breeding criteria.....CALVES ARE GETTING BIGGER, GROWING FASTER, AND MILK PRODUCTION IS BEING IGNORED BY MANY.
Next Chapter......Workable Solutions
THANK YOU, Folks.......
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Post by Deleted on Nov 17, 2013 20:44:30 GMT -5
Well our calves will stick their heads into their mothers treat bowls and sample the treats from around 4 WEEKS of age. They are also seen testing the grass alongside mum.
Some calves you never see feed from mum unless you watch for a long while and mainly we catch them late in the afternoon.
Or sometimes you will see the “milk-face” where the calf has milk over its nose and sometimes forehead. Or you see the ballooned belly indicating a recent feed from mum.
Around two months or so of age, we are hand feeding the calves small amounts of treats, encouraging their curiosity and friendliness towards us.
By 3-4 months of age, we expect them to be coming to us, following us around until we sit and hand feed some treats to them.
By 5-6 months, they have their own bowl and come running with the others for treats. Grant you they don’t pig out on the treats but they do eat some of it.
We don’t wean until near 8 months of age.
Our cows do a wonderful job feeding their calves. And we are very proud of our heifer mums with their babies more than thriving.
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Post by carragheendexters on Nov 18, 2013 7:38:59 GMT -5
Hi Donna,
maybe you are missing the point of this thread. Do you actually "know" how much milk your cows are producing? Perhaps they are producing enough to feed a calf, but what about supposedly feeding a family too? This is what a Dexter is promoted as being able to do.
If your calves are eating out of their mothers bowls at 4 weeks of age it sounds like the mother is producing only just enough milk to barely satisfy the calf. I have 2 young calves at the moment 4 weeks old and 5 weeks old, they haven't even been near the mothers feeder at feed time, they are usually playing or sleeping. They aren't even grazing at this stage. I don't even expect them to sample her feed till months on.
Our calves are weaned at around the 8-9 month, locked in the yards, and this is the first stage of their lives that they actually start really seriously eating concentrates. They do eat a bit of hay before this age if not a lot of pasture around.
What the point of the discussion is, is if you don't HAVE to milk your cows when they calve for the first month or two, (as per Margaret w's post re problem cows),or in some cases even longer with extra milky cows, then they don't do what Dexter breeders promote them as doing.
I am not saying that our cows are anything special, far from it, but we do select for milking ability. They have to be able to supply sufficient milk for the house, (and I'm not talking here a litre or two, not worth the effort of milking, the let down, or the clean up for that,) and rear a good calf. What they are supposedly meant to do, as per all of the propaganda out there on Dexter promotion.
Otherwise, how can we, in all honesty, as Dexter breeders promote Dexters as potential house cows?
regards Louise
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How can you have the answers..... 
