Asking advice on weird calving situation

[lisagruen1969]

Hey there, we have a small herd of Dexters, about 6 cows, and last winter our red cow had what looked like a miscarriage in January, but in early February she calved a healthy red bull! Now we have a black cow that calved a healthy black bull last week, but her stomach is still full and my hubby says he can see movement on the side! is it possible for a cow to have been bred twice at different times? We're keeping a close eye on her in case there is the remote chance she is going to calve again... Any ideas? THanks!

[zephyrhillsusan]

I'm sorry there is no answer from someone more knowledgeable than me. So you are forewarned that I don't have any great wisdom based on years of experience. Having said that, my best advice is to get the vet out. Whenever we are in over our heads, that's the safest course.

As far as the first cow, how long between when you thought you saw a "miscarriage" and when she calved? Perhaps what you saw was mucus stringing in preparation for birth?

If you look at my post on this board "Is this cow too big for 90 days' gestation?" (Or similar number, can't remember exactly) the link will show you photos of her belly protruding. The comments on the thread were very helpful to me and might help you, too.

I hope someone with more experience will chime in, but you can never go wrong to get the vet. An unnecessary farm call is worth the peace of mind--and a necessary one that didn't happen can cost you your animal and her a lot of suffering.

Best of luck, and let us know how it turns out.

[dexterfarm]

It is possible and has happened but it is so very very rare that I would say it is almost no chance of it.
the cow that you think miscarried. Why do you think that did you find a dead calf if so what did it look like, what size was it. Are you sure it did not belong to another cow?

[lisagruen1969]

Thanks everyone for posting - with our cow last winter, my hubby noticed what looked like a sac and a black fetus on the grass, kind of misshapen and partially formed, about 3-4 weeks before she actually delivered a fully formed, healthy bull calf.

This cow that just delivered a couple of weeks ago seems to be just a big as she was before parturition, and my hubby talks about seeing movement in her belly. COuld that be just the intestinal movements? he's just convinced that another calf is in there! The vet came out but didn't do an exam - he said he didn't know if there was a calf in there, so I think he was just accomodating my hubby's over reaction........the advice was just to wait and see what happens, but we were just curious whether this has occurred before -

[midhilldexters]

Was the cow from last year or the sire a short leg/ Chondro carrier? Could she have been pregnant with twins and maybe one have been a bulldog which she luckily aborted early? The other calf was a normal calf and survived? That's the only thing I can think of.
If your husband had been looking at the present cow that calved very close to her calving could he have been seeing the contractions that come with the expulsion of the afterbirth? Sometimes they are quite strong. It seems that you said that this was two weeks after the birth though, so that wouldn't be the case. I have had a couple of cows that always look pregnant, so that's not too unusual, but the movement is strange.
Let us know if she calves again!

Carol K

[Gorignak]

Can I say....Look for another vet ?? Did you not get any reassurance or observation.

Set the stage better here....Chondro pos or non chondro cow....chondro pos or neg bull??? PHA tested ??

Folks, does she have a chance here of describing an aborted bulldog fetus and then a live birth of a normal twin in that first birth ??  Is that even possible. Holy, Immaculate Conception !!! I don't know anything about twin placenta and sacs in cattle.

hey gal....after the ride we have been on for the first year, I'm ready to see the crop circles in somebody else's field....Let us know if you glean any more insight.

[lisagruen1969]

I checked the pedigree registry, and the sire has either non-carriers of both Chondra or PHA (?) or nothing listing. No confirmed carriers. On the dam's side, there is a confirmed Chondra carrier way back in the lineage, but nothing within 2 generations of her. Do both the sire and dam have to have the gene for a bulldog to be created?

[cddexter]

Hi Lisa: go to the American Dexter Cattle Assn website, and look up GENETICS INFO, and read about chondro and pha there. Probably the best and most accurate way to learn. cheers, carol d.

[Gorignak]

TIME TO TEST...and remember, once you have pulled hairs and sent them in, you can get other tests later without resubmitting samples. If you are selling or registering calves, your bull will HAVE TO have his genome tests on file....am I correct with that.

Get your chondro tests on sire and dams....then some speculation will be put to rest.

[Olga]

Copperhead has a weared twin calves story to tell! Born a few days apart, one calf was non dexter and polled, the other was dexter.

[jamshundred]

Lisa,

Both chondrodysplasia and PHA have to have BOTH parents as carriers before a non-viable fetus is created and/or aborted.

I breed chondro carriers. With the "proportionate" carriers they are similar in body type to non-carriers. The carriers that have stronger dwarf characteristics tend to have pot-bellied looks when pregnant and when not but they always look like they are going to have another calf for a while after pregnancy. And a nice big swill of water is the same as blowing up a balloon.

I have seen very few bulldog calves over the 20 years I've been breeding carrier to carrier. The later term calves WILL have black skin. A chondro aborted fetus will have little tiny stubs of legs attached to the body of the tissue mass. I've never seen one even in pictures that had leg stubs longer than maybe two inches. A PHA waterbaby will have longer legs with joints. When these abortions occur early the body is usually white or whitish pink as the hide has not developed.

Send me a photo of your cow and I can give you a good idea if she is chondro. There are also some characteristics to PHA cattle but you have to look at lots and lots of photos of carriers to be able to pick up on the differences in the lengths of the necks and the differences in the chest areas fore of the shoulders that I have noted in many PHA carriers.

Chondro has been with Dexters since the beginning. The Dexter breed was primarily established on the basis of dwarf cattle.
PHA in the USA can be traced to one cow - -Woodmagic Wheatear imported to Canada in 1978. ( I know of one case that does not but I am certain the parentage is recorded in error on that case).

DexterCattleAmericanLegacy.info has a photo of an aborted PHA baby so you can compare. Not sure if the bulldog is there or not but both are also available on the internet. The best way to learn is from experience. The information is statistic based and the percentages are just stats not reality. It depends on variables that are NOT available in the literature and that you learn both with positive and negative reinforcement!

Judy

[lavacaw]

If you have serious questions, have the cow palpated...a good vet should be able to tell you if she is bred or open. That should erase all doubts.

[cddexter]

Lisa. pha is a recessive gene, and therefore cannot be identified by appearance. Apparently Judy is able to do so, which makes her pretty special.

Please beware of those who claim the stats don't hold water. Often the foetus is aborted very early, and owners think the cow was slow to catch, when the reality is catch, lose the calf, and catch again.

Judy's idea of checking if the cow is a dwarf is a good one. Because the muscles and organs are not affected, and only the skeleton is, you have about a 15% reduction in capacity. This causes the cow to look very fat or at least with a great spring of rib. That might be the cause of your cow's size???

Let us know how you get on, cheers, c.