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Post by marion on Mar 20, 2014 7:59:01 GMT -5
Can there be anyone left who doesn't know the story of why Lucifer had to be destroyed? It's like the only people left who claim not to know are those who sell his descendants. With the 3 on-line registries, it is so easy to check a Dexter's ancestry. All anyone has to do to determine the ancestry of a Dexter they are considering buying is to log on and put in the registration info. No need to rely upon the sellers for disclosure. It's not like height, which is not listed, or PHA status, which is voluntarily listed or not. It's there for all to see. One of the best cows I ever owned had Lucifer three times in her pedigree and Outlaw once. I cried when she left, she was that special. I sold her to a young family living off-grid who needed a family milker and after a five hour trip was calmly backed out of her side of the horse trailer by a twelve year old boy, while his mother unloaded her heifer calf from the other side. I share-milked that cow (did not need a milking stanchion) and she would save 'my' two quarters and gently treat me like her 'other calf'. You can see pics of her on the Dexter Udder thread (red cow). What a shame it would be if a Dexter with these qualities was to be rejected because of something someone read..marion |
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Post by kansasdexters on Mar 20, 2014 8:26:10 GMT -5
If you want to read more about Lucifer of Knotting and a direct descendant (as told by a breeder that extensively used this pedigree line in their breeding program), here is a link to Sandi Thomas' firsthand experience: www.thomasdexters.com/index.asp?ID=69Another reliable source of information concerning this pedigree line is Jeff Chambers (Silver Maple Dexters). He has used Lucifer of Knotting semen to AI breed his cows, over a period of several years, and has produced more Lucifer of Knotting offspring in the United States, than any other Dexter breeder. If you really want to know the facts about what Lucifer of Knotting produces, talk to Jeff and Melinda. We visited Matt DeLavaga's farm, when he had the line-bred Lucifer of Knotting son, Glencara Finerty, as his herd sire. Glencara Finerty was 12 years old, at the time of our visit. He was a magnificent mature bull, and he was well behaved during our visit. Matt loved this bull and the calves that he produced. Glencara Finerty has several notable offspring and his line continues to contribute positive and very desirable traits to the Dexter breed. The exaggerated stories and backdoor gossip about any particular Dexter bull are not worth much, especially when those stories come from people that never used that particular bull in their own breeding programs. If a Dexter breeder really wants to know the facts about a bull (positives and negatives), then go visit the herd or talk directly with the breeders that are using him. If Lucifer of Knotting had instead been named Loverboy of Knotting, we probably wouldn't even be having this discussion. Patti |
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Post by emgiger on Mar 20, 2014 8:58:24 GMT -5
Last week we had to put our 16 year old cow down due to severe arthritis. She had Lucifer in her pedigree several times over. This cow was sweet, gentle and regal in every way. There was not a mean bone in her body. She was an ideal example of a dual purpose Dexter, consistently producing outstanding offspring, one of whom lives on at our farm. For this reason, I refuse to judge any animal by one particular cow/bull in their lineage. Every time I hear rumblings about Lucifer, quite frankly it feels like a kick in the gut. This cow was a friend to all, the matriarch of my herd, an outstanding cow in every way. Just my personal experience with Lucifer lines……..
Eileen
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Post by hollydzie on Mar 20, 2014 12:35:54 GMT -5
Nicely put Eileen I completely agree with you ~ so sorry to hear you lost a favorite girl:(
Holly
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outofthebox
member
If you always do what you always did, You will always get what you always got.....Albert Einstein.
Posts: 78
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Post by outofthebox on Mar 20, 2014 18:53:54 GMT -5
Getting back to the original reason this post exists by Karenp.
Diary breeds have a very long history of man’s interference for an increase in commodities, and personality is not a commodity.
Majority of males are disposed of while young calves. Those grown for AI purposes are chosen on their ability to increase the commodities for the diary industry.
Dexters have been bred for goodness knows how long on small acreages with constant and close contact of humans.
Man also has not ‘manipulated’ Dexters for these commercial purposes (and personally, God help us the day the Dexter begins to walk the path of one of the popular commercial breeds )
Again my opinion:
1. Psycho ‘Dexter’ bulls – rare. If they appear, they are quickly removed from genetic pool.
2. Bad tempered ‘Dexter’ bulls – rare. If they appear, they are quickly removed from genetic pool.
3. ‘Dexter’ bulls with strong personalities – possible (of course, they are individuals afterall.)
But define ‘strong personality’ and work out where the _line in the sand is_ for YOU?
Where I draw the line in the sand will be different to someone else because personally I don’t want a bull (or cow for that matter) that sits in a corner and breathes only when I tell him too.
Not only does a person’s interpretation of bad personality differ from another but environmental factors play a large part in the development of a personality and its well documented even with humans.
If you decide you would like a bull in your pasture to suit your bovine management purposes, then at least with your chosen breed The Dexter, the chances of you ending up with an issue is considerably less than had you chosen another breed.
For me, bulls bring balance and I cant imagine my herd ever being without two or three or more.......
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Post by dollarlessbill on Jul 6, 2014 23:36:32 GMT -5
look @ adca reg # 14496 if u want to see the breed n of a dexter gone wild. I sold this cow to Daniel and she resorted bac to the wild ,,, it took the mass state police, animal control, and usda over a year to catch her she eluded all and every trap they set. she had a calf while on the run and they cought the calf and then cought her that way. she was never a problem fer me and was 2me the perfict confermation of a dexter cow but the trip to mass dun her no justice she did not want to go bac north evidently. Daniel said she was never aggressive just did not like people. I bought her and she and other cows were in a single wire lot and the wire was bout waist high and we loaded her with a lead rope without any problems I never did figure her out what made her turn out that way unless,,,,, think n she was double great grand sired by Lucifer,  don't no if that had any effect on her or not? Bill |
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Post by stephanie on Aug 9, 2014 4:55:31 GMT -5
My bull criteria
1. I would never keep a bull if I had become scared of him, he would go to slaughter BUT then neither would I keep a cow that I was scared of.
2. However "nice" I believe my bull to be he is a bull and so I treat him like a bull. I don't pet him, I don't feed him by hand, I respect him, I never hurt him or tease him and I never ever turn my back on him.
3. I expect my bull to have manners. He should move out of my way if asked, move from field to field easily with the cows and generally not cause me any trouble.
4. I always carry a stick if I enter the field that the bull is in, not because I intend to hit him....just in case, so far I have never used it.
5. I don't allow anyone else in with my bull, this is just me BUT other people might do something silly and I wouldn't want them to get hurt or him to have to be slaughtered because they had done something stupid.
6. I never leave my bull on his own, he always has company even if it is a steer or an in calf cow - that is apart from the time that my stock bull has been collected for AI when there was no choice and also I try to keep them outside as I think the exercise is good for them as well.
7. Apart from a few suckler rolls on the ground with the rest of the herd I don't feed my bulls. They might not look as glossy and shiny that way but they aren't as frisky and are less likely to be pushy with me or other people if they are sold on by looking for food.
I know of so many people that have been seriously injured or killed by bulls - not Dexters. My grandfather was rescued from a Friesian bull here by our farm dogs which got in between him and the bull when it attacked him, I would never take a risk that could be avoided.
So far I have been lucky with the few Dexter bulls I have kept they have been very quiet indeed, my stock bull has been so gentle with the calves, letting them play fight him, even when he is trying to sleep and he can often be seen sleeping with the calves when they are very young. The stockman at Sire Services has had no problems at all with him, says he is good as gold, and he is being very VERY well fed there, a very different environment too, so I must have done something right.
Stephanie
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Post by lonecowhand on Dec 18, 2014 12:41:40 GMT -5
Hi Fran, it's follow-up time! How did calving go with Clydes stand-offish daughter?
Bill
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Post by littlecowfl on Dec 22, 2014 8:36:11 GMT -5
Our bull is four years old and has a very gentle temperament. Never had any trouble with him, except the normal fence jumping for a cow in heat. We have a young child and our farm hosts many events for families to come meet our animals. If we ever had a bull that was not nice, we would eat him. We would also carefully evaluate all of his offspring and consider selling them for beef, too. Our cows are easy to approach after calving. If they weren't I would not keep them. Whatever the case with Lucifer, most of the animals have him pretty far back by now and we should be paying much more attention to the behavior of the actual sire and dam of our calves, rather than blaming an ancestor. By dismissing bad behavior as a result of a bull appearing a few generations back, we risk not culling animals with bad temperaments that are the result of or own poor breeding crosses. No Dexter is too pretty to eat, regardless of coat color.  |
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Post by cddexter on Dec 22, 2014 14:00:51 GMT -5
Well said, Alicia!!! c.
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Post by J & M Chambers on Dec 22, 2014 19:12:13 GMT -5
That time of year again... “Brer Fox, do anything but use dat Lucifer of Knotting bull, sell those straws to someone cheap and right now!” “Oh please Brer Fox, please don’t use Lucifer of Knotting, finds someone, anyone to take them nasty straws off your hands!” “Whatever you do Brer Fox, please don’t breed with Lucifer of Knotting. I’ll tell you what - I’ll take dat tank full of the Devil himself off your hands so you daren’t be tempted!” And you are, pardon my directness, d**n right. Expecting to get the benefits of this bull just because he’s way back in the pedigree is not only wrong but seriously ignorant in terms of knowledge of livestock breeding. Watch: Bucket MovieBrer Rabb…errr…..Jeff "Tact is the ability to tell someone to go to hell in such a way that they look forward to the trip." –Winston Churchill |
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Post by kansasdexters on Dec 22, 2014 22:09:45 GMT -5
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Post by legendrockranch on Dec 22, 2014 23:19:11 GMT -5
That time of year again... Watch: Bucket Movie"Tact is the ability to tell someone to go to hell in such a way that they look forward to the trip." –Winston Churchill Loved the bucket movie, didn't realize you were a rocker Jeff Mind if I link the movie to a not so friendly Lucifer site? you can pm me privately if you like. Barb |
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Post by hollyrockranch on Dec 27, 2014 15:51:12 GMT -5
Hi all, this is our experience so far. Our first bull was an Angus, years ago we had a bottle baby Angus bull we raised till he was 10 month old. Beef as we called him was a sweet hart that liked to suck on your hand. As he got bigger he liked to jump the fence and run down the road and if our door was open he would just walk in the house looking for treats. When we took him to the sale he road in the back of our mini van. Beef was our first bull experience and that ended before he matured. We decided to get a Dexter bull. Elemental Helios is the bull we purchased as an 8 month old he is black, polled, sire by Belle Fourche Rousseau. He is calm and friendly likes to be brushed and eat treats out of our hand just a nice guy. I was amazed how well he behaves at the fair all the heifers and cows in heat and he was pudding in our hands. Helios was shown as a yearling and as a 2 year old by our daughter. Helios was 950lb# at the fair this year. The judge said he was surprised how well Helios behaved being a 2 year bull. The only thing I have noticed is that Helios will walk right through the barb wire fence like a ballerina he will even stop right in the middle and scratch his back on the top wire. I just shake my head laugh and call him back in Yes he comes when he is called that is a big plus. If Helios was not such a sweet boy it would be hard to work with him he just lets me do what I got to do.
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Post by kansasdexters on Dec 27, 2014 20:09:45 GMT -5
Tina (hollyrock),
As bulls mature, approaching 5 - 6 years of age, they do tend to become more territorial and protective of their herd. That is natural for them and if they are familiar with their owner, and the owner is familiar with "normal" bull behavior, it is not a problem. Always respect the bull, and strive to understand what normal "mature" bull behavior actually is. If you do this, the bull will be happy and you will be happy with your bull(s).
If your bull is not respecting your fence, then you need better fence. Every time that he gets out, it rewards his undesirable behavior. You will need to reinforce your fence and probably put at least one strand of electric fence to keep him where you put him. It is important that you do this, while he is still young enough and cooperative enough to change his behavior, so that he does not damage property and escape at will. Always remember that he will continue to grow until he is 5 or 6 years old, and that his behaviors (good and bad) will be determined by how he is managed as he matures.
Patti
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don't no if that had any effect on her or not?
