Moving to plan D, any suggestions? (warning - long post)

[kytinpusher]

I haven't been on here in quite a while, so a little history...

2-1/2 years ago we received a 16MO unregistered Dexter heifer as a surprise gift from our neighbors before they moved. She had been in the pasture with Dexter bulls and had escaped their pasture quite a few times before we got her. My concern at the time was perhaps she had escaped into a nearby pasture with a full sized bull, so we had the vet preg test her. She was not pregnant. Made me wonder at the time, but we weren't ready for the heifer, let alone a calf, so I was relieved at the time.

The following summer, we decided to breed her and started exploring our options. We decided to buy a very handsome, young (11MO), registered bull. After 9 months in the pasture together, our heifer was still not pregnant and the bull tested fertile. Given our heifer's past history, we thought it was her. So, we bought a new 18MO registered heifer, with the intention of sending the first heifer to the freezer. Because the new heifer had been exposed to a young bull just before we bought her, we gave her a shot of lutalyse. Thinking perhaps our 1st heifer may need just a bit of a push, we decided to give her one last shot (pun intended) and gave her lutalyse, too. The bull was seen being quite "busy" with both girls a few days later.

Three months later, both girls palpated negative, although the vet said there was a very slight possibility that our first heifer was pregnant and it was too early to be sure. ARRGHH! We decided to give it until we ran out of hay this spring. In the mean time, we offered them Redmond's Conditioning minerals with selenium and Thorvin Kelp free choice. 

Last week we were back at the vet and still no calves in the works. Double ARRGHH! The vet feels it is an issue with the bull and suggested we bring him in to be tested again. We have seen him mount and penetrate both of the girls on several occasions. He has been with the first girl for a year and a half now and the second girl for nine months now. He is a VERY handsome boy, but we don't want to put any more money into the bull only to find out that he can't get it done anyway. IT IS NOT SUPPOSED TO BE THIS HARD!!!

My dream of having a family milk cow seemed to be slipping away for good and my husband was ready to be done with cattle altogether. We made an appointment for next week for the bull and the older cow at the processor. We weren't sure what we were going to do with the younger girl. However, after I talked to a friend of mine that has some extra pasture (ours is trash after our super nasty winter), we decided to just process the bull. We will take both girls over to my friend's house and try to AI them, as her neighbor does AI and keeps a nitrogen tank.

Anyone have any suggestions to help us achieve a successful breeding?

[lakeportfarms]

Do you know anybody who has a proven bull that you can use?  My main concern would be the success of AI breeding due to the age of the heifers.  It can be pretty difficult to get older animals bred and in my opinion your best chance would be with a bull that you know is capable.  If you don't have easy access to Dexter semen, the cost will be pretty significant to buy the straws you may require and have them shipped to you.

[kytinpusher]

The breeder that we bought the second heifer from is willing to lend us her herd bull, but for a few reasons I don't want my friend to have to deal with a bull, even a nice one, and I don't think the breeder has the pasture to take our heifers. However, if AI doesn't work, that is plan E.

[zephyrhillsusan]

How expensive would it be to get the bull tested again? It doesn't seem it would be much compared to possibly butchering a perfectly good bull that you bought and have fed all this time. Since he tested fertile once, why wouldn't he still be?

I would be wondering about the first heifer who had been with bulls but was still not bred. Any chance she could be a freemartin? Any chance she got pregnant and aborted without you being aware of it? In other words, are you sure you'd have seen the signs? Have you had her tested for things that she could be carrying that could cause her to lose a calf, like neospora?

In my understanding, at the age your first heifer is now, it could be hard to get her bred at all, especially if she's fat. When we took our 19-month old heifer to be bred by a bull after on-farm AI didn't take, there was a 3 year old cow there that the owners were trying desperately to get bred.  She was quite fat, and the bull's owners didn't have much hope of it taking after several previous tries.  Ours got bred fine, by the way, by the same bull.

And I suppose it would be an incredible coincidence that something was wrong with both your heifers, but have you had the second one tested?

Personally, as long as you've been feeding them all and the money you've put into buying them, vet visits, etc. I would go the final mile and get any testing done that the vet recommended so I wouldn't be butchering an animal needlessly.  And then I would probably give the family cow dream one more chance and buy a cow with a calf on her (so you know she can calve) and hopefully one that's already bred back.  I'm so very sorry for all your disappointments.  You're right, it shouldn't be so hard!  You should be able to have your family cow--and eat her calves, too!  Hopefully other more experienced people will chime in with other ideas . . .

[outofthebox]

I have the following questions

Are both heifers continuing to cycle every 21-28 days?

If the answer is yes, is the bull wanting to join with the heifers every cycle?
Does he also perform each time?


This is what I would do in your situation:

1. Have bull tested, yes again but this time have a count of the viable sperm done. Just because they are there and swimming doesn’t mean they are viable enough to penetrate the egg. Include bloods also for general health.

2. Have girls checked for infections, virus and general overall health include the test for anovular (which is treatable) and follicular cysts.
Include hormone levels also as a reduction of oestrogen will prevent pregnancy if heifer is cycling.

3. Check the body condition of all three animals. Low BCS has a great impact on fertility and pregnancy retention rates.

4. Check diet, management practices and environment.
Stress is a major cause of infertility or low calving rates.

Also did you know that feeding cows for prolonged periods on clover, lucerne (alfalfa)or other plants rich in phytoestrogens may lead to cystic ovaries.

Little (1976) assessed several pasture species for oestrogenic activity and found that lucerne (Medicago sativa) had a slight oestrogenic potential.

[kytinpusher]

Thank you for all the advice.

We have seen the younger cow in heat recently and seen her stand while the bull mounted her back in January. The bull and younger cow are always together, while the older one is usually off by herself. At least until the last couple of days when the situation seems reversed. I don't know how excited a bull should be when a cow is in heat, but he has never impressed me as being real earnest about it. Our mini donkey is much more persistent with his girl. With the terrible weather we have had this year, we haven't been out for any length of time to keep an eye on them very much lately, though, so a lot more could be going on than we see.

The older cow is fat and I realize that may make her very difficult to breed at this point. I have wondered if she has been getting pregnant, but is not carrying the calf (actually, both of them). Is there any way to tell? The only reason she is getting a reprieve from the butcher is to keep the younger cow company. We will still make an attempt to AI her, unless my friend's neighbor thinks it isn't worth trying - he knows at LOT more about cattle than I do. We can always butcher her later.

All those tests sound expensive, although I imagine failed AI is more expensive. The preg tests have only been $5 each. Why would our vet not have mentioned doing any of these tests during the multiple visits we have made to them? They have not been able to offer us any real explanation to what the real issue is. Do the tests all just require a blood draw? As we are going to wait a couple of months to try the AI, we'll look into having these tests run, at least on the younger cow, before we do.

I don't think there is much clover in their pastures, or alfalfa. I don't know the content of the hay, but I believe it is just grass hay that they have been getting. My friend says her pastures have been excellent for breeding cattle. She has never had any problems, so maybe the change will help.

As for the bull, it may be a shame, but his time is up. As I said before, I don't want my friend to deal with a bull. Our pasture was hit hard this winter and needs time to recover. Plus, I can't see the bull being happy in our pasture alone, especially when neighbor's cows are in heat. When we decided to buy a bull, we knew the freezer was a possibility if things didn't work out. I acknowledge that he may not be the real problem here, but it is not feasible to keep going with him.

[kytinpusher]

FWIW - I just looked up the younger cow's papers. She was only 15.5MO when we got her. She is now 25MO.

[outofthebox]

The tests are blood and a couple of swabs of the vagina area and they do not cost much at all.

You must remember that many cattle owners will not spend money for any reason. The cow/bull is a replaceable commodity so many vets are reluctant or don’t have the field experience to make such recommendations for problem-solving.

But just think how expensive would it be if you do slaughter these Dexters that you have now fed for how many months + purchase price + recent vet visits only to bring in new heifers / cows who also end up with the same or similar fertility issues because the cause is sitting in your environment?

Who’s to say the original heifer was not carrying a virus/bacterial infection, passed it onto the bull that then passed it onto your older heifer?

It could be as simple as a 2 week course of antibiotics for pregnancies to occur.

Our bulls tend to only be interested for half a day at the most, do the job and then walk away and not be interested in the female again.

You need to know if your heifers are cycling every three weeks.
You need to know if they dont cycle for a period of time and then suddenly come back into heat.

Knowing the answers to those two questions would help to reduce the long list of (treatable / preventable) possibilities.

I’d want answers so I could prevent possible future issues.