Looking for traditional bull - SC

[Fran]

Hi Everyone, I have a traditional cow (no polled in her pedigree) that I'm looking to breed to a traditional bull. I'm hoping to find one close to Woodruff, SC. I had or was part of an on-line discussion a while back about this, but cannot locate it and cannot remember who I was discussing it with. She is chondro-neg. so a chondro-positive bull would be okay. Let me know if you have or know of anything. Thanks!

[dexterfarm]

I have a Legacy bull for sale but I am in Iowa. I know the Chautauqua herd is selling some animals. Check with Gene or Judy they would probably know what is available out there. You might also check here dextercattleworld.proboards.com/

[hollydzie]

Fran what about an AI bull out of traditional lines??

[Fran]

I'm not looking to buy one (I'm not set up for more than one bull). I just thought that maybe if someone had one close to me, I could take Bonnie there for a "visit." Holly, I've never done AI and not sure what all is involved or if there's anyone around me that could do it.

[zephyrhillsusan]

Some vets do it, Fran, just call around and ask. You just need to be able to detect standing heat, which is a WHOLE lot easier now that I know about Estrotect patches. The rule of thumb with those is that the cow is in standing heat when you see the patch color rubbed off and you should have her AI'd within 12 hours. We've only used them since we got our bull, so when I see the color rubbed off I mark that as the breeding date. I really think that if the AI clinic had told me about them, we might have been more successful with on-farm AI. We had 2 for 2 at the clinic and 0 for 2 on farm.

You might also try contacting Genex and Select Sires to see if they have any AI techs in the area. I don't think they carry any Dexter semen, of course, but sometimes techs are willing to AI with other semen. And you might try putting out a feeler on the ADCA Facebook Region page to see if anyone knows of a tech in your area.

[Fran]

Yes, I think I need to get some of those Estrotect patches. Some of mine are very vocal and active when in heat; others not so much. I was only thinking about doing because of the conversation with someone (maybe Judy - I can't remember) about preserving the "traditional" lines. Bonnie is traditional. But, if I can't find one, I'll just put her back in with Harvey. We'll see. I won't be ready to breed her back until at least March anyway. If I get a chance, I'll ask my vet if he does or knows anyone that does AI.

[lakeportfarms]

Fran,

I think A.I is going to be your best option. You could get Ace of Clove Brook, SF Ferdinand, or Gene's bull Brenn if you may want a chondro carrier. I hope you can find somebody to help you with that, and thanks for trying to breed the traditional cow to a nice traditional bull.

[zephyrhillsusan]

You could ask Patti Adams about Ace of Clovebrook. If you want to try a couple Estrotect patches without buying the whole 50, I'll be glad to send you two. They end up about a dollar apiece, but I appreciated when someone gave me two so I could see if I liked them before I sprang for a whole box. Just PM me your address if you want them.

[dexterfarm]

If you want to go the AI route. A Legacy bull I sold. Has been collected. He has not been listed publicly yet but should be soon.

[Fran]

I think I'm going to mention this on one of the Dexter fb pages to see if anyone close to me has a bull. I just think that's going to be easier than the AI route for me.

[Cascade Meadows Farm - Kirk]

"Traditional" sure is a murky concept that means different things to different people.

Can you please give us the phenotype (what the bull should look like) and the genotype (genes the bull is carrying) of what you believe makes a traditional bull?

Are you simply saying you want a horned bull? (that's phenotype and also genotype since ALL horned bulls have two horn genes).

How tall would you like the bull to be (in terms of his 3 year old measure)?

Do you want one that is heterozygous for many of his traits or homozygous for many of his traits?

What sort of behavior are you looking for?

What about dairy vs. beef characteristics?

Is a really great udder critically important for you?

Are there any weaknesses in your cows that you are looking to correct?

Would you like to increase the true genetic height of your herd, or decrease the true genetic height of your herd?

[midhilldexters]

Mike, you have to realize that to some of us, the word Traditional doesn't mean much of anything. It was a group of people's way of separating out certain animals. I know the ADCA doesn't use that terminology to classify any animals. To me you have horned or polled and carrier or non carrier, all accepted equally. I go with my breed societies point of view on it and so Kirk's question is valid, and good, it shows newcomers to the breed there are lots of things to question before you buy. No need to get all bent out of shape over it really?

Carol K

[dexterfarm]

Carol,
I realize to any one looking at this board and thread would think that he was insentient. but what most dont know is on another board he has spent weeks saying anything and everything to try and undermine efforts to preserve the old blood lines.

[legendrockranch]

Jan 30, 2015 15:41:16 GMT -5 midhilldexters said:

Mike, you have to realize that to some of us, the word Traditional doesn't mean much of anything. It was a group of people's way of separating out certain animals. I know the ADCA doesn't use that terminology to classify any animals. To me you have horned or polled and carrier or non carrier, all accepted equally. I go with my breed societies point of view on it and so Kirk's question is valid, and good, it shows newcomers to the breed there are lots of things to question before you buy. No need to get all bent out of shape over it really? Carol K

Jan 30, 2015 17:14:25 GMT -5 dexterfarm said:

Carol,
I realize to anyone looking at this board and thread would think that he was insentient. but what most don't know is on another board he has spent weeks saying anything and everything to try and undermine efforts to preserve the old blood lines.

Mike, Carols post has to do with the terminology being used.  There is no need to bring another forums discussions especially about such a hot topic onto this forum.

 

[Cascade Meadows Farm - Kirk]

Preserving a line of animals is NOT like preserving an antique chair.
Animals change from generation to generation, while the chair doesn't change.

Due to genetic drift, there's only one way to "preserve" the traits you want in ANY animals or plants:

1. You must have a clear picture of the exact traits/genes you are trying to preserve

2. You must carefully select for those traits/genes generation after generation.

If you're not doing this, then you're NOT preserving anything at all, except for some paper concept that has no basis in reality.

If you're looking for a bull to preserve some old bloodline, you better have a detail list of what you're trying to preserve, or you'll lose something due to genetic drift and/or sloppy selection.

For example, if I wanted to try to preserve the great old Woodmagic line, I'd need to understand Beryl Rutherford's selection criteria to continue the work she was doing before she passed on. If I didn't select for the same things she was selecting for, then my attempts at preserving the Woodmagic line would FAIL due to genetic drift and/or sloppy selection.

So to the original poster up top, can you make a detail list of the traits/genes that are important to you?

How tall do you want? (In terms of the 3 year measurement)
How thick do you want?
How milky do you want?
What sort of behavior do you want?
What horn status do you want?
Do you have a color preference?
What weaknesses are you trying to avoid in a bull?
What weaknesses do you need to work on in your cows?

You'll want a bull that has strengths in the areas of your cows' weaknesses, so you can correct your cows' weak points.

You may not be able to meet your entire wish-list, but you might get pretty close.

When selecting a bull also ask about the parents and grandparents and siblings.

A linebred bull out of a strong family of animals will tend to be homozygous for the good traits you are interested in and will throw more consistent calves

A random bred bull (not much inbreeding/linebreeding) may look fantastic, but his offspring may be very inconsistent because he will be mostly heterozygous for his traits.