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Post by cddexter on Aug 9, 2015 18:05:40 GMT -5
Lucifer's crossing is a lot closer. That would be interesting. Hey Patti, may I volunteer some $$ to the process?
Personally I think the ADCA should be fronting this. After all, look at all the money they saved by doing nothing about pha. Jeff, you listening???
cheers, c.
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Post by midhilldexters on Aug 9, 2015 18:22:42 GMT -5
I agree it wouldn't hurt the ADCA to reimburse Patti either, and also play for Lucifer to be done. Are you listening ADCA, we'd like to help you spend some of our money??
Carol K
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Post by kansasdexters on Aug 9, 2015 18:44:49 GMT -5
I would much rather see the ADCA Board take action to make the Breed Analysis test at UC-Davis VGL a requirement for anyone that offers Dexter bull semen for sale on the ADCA website. This would help to assure integrity in the breed and protect future Dexter owner breeders from having to deal with concerns about whether or not they are breeding purebred Dexter cattle. The people that offer semen for sale, benefit financially from those sales, so the cost of testing should be their responsibility. The ADCA doesn't need to subsidize them.
The timing for this type of a requirement to be put in place, could not be better. The ADCA has just sent letters out to everyone that advertises their AI bull on the ADCA website, requiring that these bulls be genotyped at both UC-Davis VGL and at Texas A&M, and that the lab numbers be posted in the bull's advertisement. This is to make it easier for breeders that use this semen to have their offspring sire qualified at either lab. Because the UC-Davis Breed Assignment test includes a DNA genotype (worth $ 25), the actual cost of the Breed Assignment test ($ 120.00) would really only be $95.00, if it was done at the same time as the genotype. It would also be done on the same sample (semen or tail hair).
Thanks to everyone that continues to support efforts to improve the integrity of the Dexter breed by their own actions. Marion Clements deserves special thanks for providing the semen needed for Saltaire Platinum's Breed Assignment test. Without her participation and resources, it would not have been possible.
Patti
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Post by legendrockranch on Aug 9, 2015 19:49:07 GMT -5
At first when Kirk mentioned about testing Lucifer next. My thought was, why stop there why not test all of the Legacy hit list animals.  Than I got to thinking what would the purpose of that be? We can’t go back and correct what has happened in the past (if any), all we can do is move forward. I’m liking Patti’s idea. make the Breed Analysis test at UC-Davis VGL a requirement for anyone that offers Dexter bull semen for sale on the ADCA website. This would help to assure integrity in the breed and protect future Dexter owner breeders from having to deal with concerns about whether or not they are breeding purebred Dexter cattle. The people that offer semen for sale, benefit financially from those sales, so the cost of testing should be their responsibility. The ADCA doesn't need to subsidize them. Patti[/quote |
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Post by J & M Chambers on Aug 9, 2015 21:21:42 GMT -5
Carol what am I listening to or for, assuming the "Jeff" you called is myself?
I would like to find out more about the process and how Patti went about it. Patti would you send me information or give me a call sometime on this?
However, has someone been questioning the paper trail pedigree of Lucifer? I think that trail is one of the most well traveled ones in dexterdom.
I thought that the use of breed analysis in the case of Platinum was appropriate in that there were insinuations and outright claims that the paper trail was not accurate. Short of P.V. for each line 5 generations back this was the best tool to silence those claims.
Carol and/or Patti are you suggesting that this breed analysis tool be the criteria for registration rather than the generational? What would be the purpose of testing Lucifer, who no one that I'm aware claims there are errors on the paper pedigree trail, only that his pedigree leads back to the U.K. Appendix Registry. The matings that resulted in him were as much or more so intentional as any to reproduce dexter traits.
The use of the breed analysis test in this case, it appears to me, would seem to be a rather nonsensical test of the logic of heredity that after 5 generations your at 97%?
I do not deny that I would take some brief, petty level of satisfaction in a big: “How 'bout them Apples?” in our long journey with our favorite devil but the facts remain his pedigree is known and his status as Dexter is fact based upon the registration requirements.
What am I missing?
Jeff
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Post by kansasdexters on Aug 9, 2015 21:33:10 GMT -5
Jeff,
I'll email a copy of the test application form to you. From there, you can contact UC-Davis VGL and order the test. It is a special test that is not available to be ordered online.
No one is suggesting that this test be used to substitute for generational records. That is not the purpose of doing it.
The purpose of testing Lucifer would be to verify that he maps to the Dexter breed group and that any of the breed specific markers associated with the known "other breeds" in his pedigree are no longer in his genetic profile. The Breed Analysis test is valid for identifying introgression within 5 generations, and Lucifer's "non-Dexter" ancestry is well beyond that limit.
Patti
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Post by J & M Chambers on Aug 9, 2015 21:38:51 GMT -5
Jeff, The purpose of testing Lucifer would be to verify that he maps to the Dexter breed group and that any of the breed specific markers associated with the known "other breeds" in his pedigree are no longer in his genetic profile. The Breed Analysis test is valid for identifying introgression within 5 generations, and Lucifer's "non-Dexter" ancestry is well beyond that limit.Patti Precisely my point Patti. The test is valid for introgression within 5 generations. Lucifer's is not within 5 generations. Why apply the test? You are a scientist for Pete's sake! Thanks for send the information! Jeff |
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Post by kansasdexters on Aug 9, 2015 21:48:31 GMT -5
Jeff,
It's standard procedure in my work to verify test results with a "known" sample, before and/or after testing an "unknown" sample. FYI, I'm also going to test Ace of Clove Brook, since he has no record of "other than Dexter" ancestry.
Patti
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Post by J & M Chambers on Aug 9, 2015 22:04:34 GMT -5
Well that makes sense Patti but was not the reason provided for testing Lucifer whose status of introgression is know and which does not fit within the validity parameters of the test. And therefore not an ideal validity test subject in my humble social scientist perspective.  I'll take a look at the forms. Price seems reasonable. Assuming semen sample was used in place of blood? Jeff |
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Post by kansasdexters on Aug 9, 2015 22:11:09 GMT -5
Jeff - You can use tail hairs, semen, or blood as the sample.
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Post by midhilldexters on Aug 10, 2015 10:59:53 GMT -5
Not against the idea that Patti mentioned with the AI bulls, however I still think the ADCA should take the initiative and pay for tests on animals that may be called into question. Plat, Lucifer, Bullfinch, Allies Fling etc. Why not, if nothing else it puts an end to the questions on the animals that people may have had for years.
Of course the test is only good for the breeds it covers right now, but hopefully more will become available soon.
Carol K
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Post by Cascade Meadows Farm - Kirk on Aug 10, 2015 22:44:12 GMT -5
The test is perfectly valid for 5 generations, 10 generations, 20 generations, 30 generations and more.
The analysis does 3 different things:
1. It compares the animal's dna to typical pure dexters to see if the animal in question appears to be a typical genetically pure dexter.
2. It compares the animal's dna to a long list of other breeds to see if traces of those other breeds can be found.
3. It compares the animal's Y-Chromosome haplotype to typical pure dexter haplotypes to see if the animal's haplotype is one commonly found in dexters thought to be pure.
All three of these tests are valid aspects of the animal's purity and they aren't any less valid after 6 or 8 or 20 generations.
It's inaccurate to say that the test is only valid for 5 generations. Instead, what they should mean to say is that the purebreeding process almost always eliminates traces of other breeds within 5 generations. So looking for traces of those breeds after 5 generations can be a waste of time and money.
That's what we've been trying to tell the unscientific-minded purists for decades... that 5 generations of pure-breeding makes a Dexter pure and now we have objective DNA tests that can prove it. If the unscientific minded purists would simply accept the genetic science of pure-breeding, we wouldn't be forced to have to jump through hoops to prove it to them.
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Post by J & M Chambers on Aug 11, 2015 8:49:56 GMT -5
It's inaccurate to say that the test is only valid for 5 generations. Instead, what they should mean to say is that the purebreeding process almost always eliminates traces of other breeds within 5 generations. So looking for traces of those breeds after 5 generations can be a waste of time and money. That's what we've been trying to tell the unscientific-minded purists for decades... that 5 generations of pure-breeding makes a Dexter pure and now we have objective DNA tests that can prove it. If the unscientific minded purists would simply accept the genetic science of pure-breeding, we wouldn't be forced to have to jump through hoops to prove it to them. I do not have the information to know what the validity or reliability parameters of the test are so can non comment on the number of generations it is valid for, only what others relate. Since Patti has suggested she is going to do validity test (with n of 1) I would think a reliability test of multiple Platinum would also be in order - but I thought that, since the initial results were made publicly available already that there was reliance upon the reputation and assurance of the lab conducting that the test was both valid and reliable for the its stated purpose. Regardless.... Kirk, what I indicated in my question "What I am missing?" was, as you have repeated, using this on an animal with a known 5 generation is a waste of resources (nonsensical) and perhaps more important opens the door for precedent such that now generations of pedigree is no longer "perceived" as the standard for pedigree registration, which I also asked in my previous post. Carol K. I understand your point speaking to the ability to say to the deniers: "How about them apples?" but the notion of jumping through hoops for persons with valid justification is problematic, for me at least, and doing so for persons that choose not to understand or willfully misunderstand is way far yonder beyond my comfort zone. Am I odd, okay don't answer that... Does anyone else have trouble jumping through hoops for those not willing to or choosing to not understand? That being said I am going to submit a sample for an animal/s from my farm and see what occurs after all I have LOTS of animals from imported semen running around here. Jeff |
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Post by cddexter on Aug 11, 2015 9:21:36 GMT -5
Hi Jeff:
"the notion of jumping through hoops for persons.......... that choose not to understand or willfully misunderstand is way far yonder beyond my comfort zone. Does anyone else have trouble jumping through hoops for those not willing to or choosing to not understand?"
I'm with you on that. The problem as I see it is in the very "not willing or choosing" part. The misinformation is out there, a few gullible have been sucked in, and now the leading clique thinks they have enough support to ask for special status. It's to the rank and file that the scientific information needs to be presented; and in a way that's clear and incontrovertable. Patti, Kirk and you are doing that. It would be nice if the ADCA were more vocal, too. The association has a history of non-involvement (I figure 30+ years of observation, 20% of that time as one of the Directors, entitles me to an opinion here),
The clique will continue to move the goalpost in their attempt to contain the damage to their image; it's up to the rest of us, and especially our breed association, to provide clarification and support.
Cheers, c.
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Post by midhilldexters on Aug 11, 2015 11:56:07 GMT -5
Hi Jeff,
Yeah there was some virtual high fiving for sure over the result, and in all honesty I don't look at it as jumping through hoops to prove a point to the haters.
Polled breeders have been told they are "bad breeders" "have mutts" and goodness knows a multitude of other dramatic phrases. I guess I am happy for them that they have the proof to say, we now know different.
Would it have made a difference if the result was different? Polled breeders would have still loved their animals, and the haters would have kept on hating.
Have you noticed how quiet those haters all are now??
Carol K
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