How useless are teats on a bull?

[carragheendexters]

Hi Everyone,

did I get your attention LOL.
Long time no post, but I have a question to ask of you knowledgeable US people.
Here in Australia as far as registration goes, the number of teats on a bull matters. If a bull has less than 4 teats it is ok to register him just not desirable, however if he has more than 4 teats, he is not acceptable for registration.
For cows, rudimentary teats are allowable, with a recommendation that they are removed. Less than 4 teats is not mentioned, the only comment is that blind quarters from mastitis is allowable and other comments on fused teats, bottle teats etc.
Now my question is, (I have never seen more than 4 teats or less than 4 teats on any bull calves that I have bred,  or on other people's cattle,) has anyone else seen or have knowledge of bulls with more than 4 teats (or less than 4 teats)?
I don't understand the logic of this part of our standard. Why are rudimentary allowed on cows but not bulls, but less than 4 is allowed in bulls. (which I thought would be a bigger problem, who wants heifers born with 3 teats)
Anyone know anything?
regards Louise

[zephyrhillsusan]

Don't know a thing about it except that the only two bulls I've ever been up close and personal with both had teats. I believe that here in the US, as long as they're in front of the scrotum it's fine, but if they're behind it, it's bad. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong.

[kansasdexters]

A bull's teats are always in front of the scrotum. It is preferable for the bull's teats (all four of them) to be evenly spaced, the same size, and located in front of, rather than on the neck of the scrotum. The symmetry and even spacing, shape, and size are indicative of what his daughters will have for udders. Bull's with teats down on the neck of the scrotum tend to produce daughters that have a poor front attachment and a forward tilt to their udders.

I have seen only one bull calf with 5 teats, 3 on one side and 2 on the other side. It's not something that occurs with any frequency in the Dexter breed. I've never seen a bull calf with only 3 teats.


Patti

[carragheendexters]

Thanks for your input. Yes, it is also accepted over here that a bulls teats should be even spaced and in front of the scrotum not on the neck of the scrotum.
I have not seen a bull calf with anything but 4 teats, but why then would our standards specifically mention it and have more than 4 as unable to be registered? It seems strange that rudimentary teats, ie more than 4 is allowed in heifers but not bulls. Yet, less than 4 is allowed in bulls.
Perhaps it is something that used to be seen more frequently in earlier days? Or perhaps in some lines?

[cddexter]

Hi Louise. Nice to see you here.

The size, shape and placement of teats on a bull translate to what his offspring will have, if they inherit from him. Thus it's really important to have proper spacing, good shape, and 'correct' placement. It's also really important to pay attention to the suspensory ligament on the balls, as this equates to the suspensory ligament in the offspring. Supernumary teats were ommon in early woodmagics in Canada, probably because the herd was going through the narrow part of the hourglass at that time. Also, uneven testes can translate to uneven udder (one side higher than the other).

I'd NEVER keep a bull with only three teats because that translates to three quarters in the cow instead of four, and appears fairly inheritable. Supernumery teats are perceived as more of a cosmetic issue. Some people cut them off and keep quiet; others cull, others don't seem to care (or maybe know).

If you want, you could check with Marg Rawlins and/or with Peter Chilcott, who lives just down the road from her: he's the Supergene guy. What he doesn't know isn't worth knowing about.

best for '16, cheers, c.

[carragheendexters]

Thankyou Carol. My thinking is the same and why I find the standard for registration illogical. It just doesn't seem to make sense that a bull born with 3 teats is allowed but a heifer born with 3 quarters should not be (it doesn't mention this in the standard so obviously assumes all will have 4 quarter) and yet a bull with more than 4 teats not allowed but a heifer is.
This was brought up in conversation between some Dexter breeders chatting at our last DCAI AGM.
I am sending you a PM to catch up.
regards Louise

[hoperefuge]

Jan 15, 2016 23:09:21 GMT -5 kansasdexters said:

I have seen only one bull calf with 5 teats, 3 on one side and 2 on the other side. It's not something that occurs with any frequency in the Dexter breed.


Patti

My experience would bring me to the exact opposite conclusion.  I've seen quite a few with one extra teat.  The original 3 that came into my herd from other breeders were all from quite different bloodlines.  (Except that they were all polled, so go back to Platinum eventually, but the lines from him on down are different.  Definitely NOT going to try to say that Platinum is the source!)

It doesn't seem to pass consistently (100%) to offspring of either gender.  In fact, I've bred an extra-teat bull to a 1 extra-teat cow, and gotten a heifer with just the normal 4.

It does seem like quite an illogical policy, Louise.  It would be interesting to hear if you can find out their reasoning behind it.

Kim

[carragheendexters]

Thankyou Kim for your reply. So do you mean you have seen quite a few bull calves with extra teats, or do you mean Dexters?
Do you get the feeling that it may be dominant then? and maybe 2 alleles, that may explain why you got the heifer with only 4 teats, or do you think maybe polygenetic?
I need to ask some of the earliest breeders who were around when the standard for registration was put together what the rationale was.
I do know some people in Australia are dead against supernumary teats and will cull for it. I am not, it seems more for aesthetic reasons, they don't look very pretty for the show ring. I can find lots of other things in my cows that I would cull for before extra teats LOL.

[zephyrhillsusan]

Here's a commentary on extra teats on a cow from a dairy perspective.  Here's an article from Gabriella Nanci on the subject.  

As far as teats on a bull, I'd be interested to hear your comments on this photo.  Based on what I've read here, it seems like this bull should not be used for breeding because the teats are actually on his scrotum as opposed to in front of it and nicely spaced.  Comments?

And finally, here's a 2011 discussion from this forum on the same topic.

[hoperefuge]

carragheendexters I've had quite a few Dexter bulls/bull calves with one extra teat.

I don't like extras on my cows, they just bug the crap out of me because I don't like the way it looks.  But yes, there are definitely more important things to cull for.  I think the genetics of it are very complicated probably.  I've started a list of all the cattle I've ever owned, divided up as "no extras", "1 XT", and "2 XT", to see if I can make any sense of it.  Very elementary, I know!   I see no patterns yet...except that 2 extra teats on a cow seems to pass consistently to her daughters.

I don't have much time right now, so I'll have to look at those links later zephyrhillsusan.

Kim

[legendrockranch]

I'm with you Kim, I don't like them on my cows either. I do not remove them, if they have them so be it. I also have not figured out any pattern. With the last bull I purchased I asked that the sire & dam of the bull calf not have extra teats. I'm not sure it will matter since several of my girls do. My only solace is Gerald Frys video, which has been posted on this forum before. At about 6 minutes into the video he mentions that he likes extra teats on cows.

www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=11svqzRmlss

Barb

[hoperefuge]

Susan, that dairy article is pretty much what I've always heard about them, too.  My vet did tell me that if there IS functioning works behind an extra teat, it can become a mastitis issue.  My one "2 XT" girl had some "swelling" in her one extra last year, which concerned me a bit, but it hasn't done it this time around.

I don't bother to snip them either, Barb.  I think I'm just going to gradually start selecting away from them, all other important traits equal.  As far as Gearld Fry, yes, I heard him say that he likes extras too, "because they mean extra butterfat!"  Whatever.  I think he's a bit of a nut job with some of this stuff he claims.  But he sure doesn't want extras on a bull.

Kim

[cddexter]

barb and hope: it must be a guy thing.

PS barb, just read about no beans in chili in a Texas author whodunit...haha. That's a Texas thing. North of the Red River, it's okay. cheers, c.

oh yeah, and back on topic, I once bought sight unseen a cow that had three quarters, two on one side and one huge one on the other. Her daughter had two on one side, and two fused on the other. I guess four is better than three, but I always thought it wasn't a good thing. For me definitely something not to breed for.

[carragheendexters]

If any heifers of ours have extra teats I just have to snip them off LOL. They drive me crazy looking at them. Ours are disbudded at about 2 weeks old, so I do snip them off then. The first one I had, (back when we were getting the vet to disbud) I had the vet show me the best way to snip them off. You need really sharp scissors. I have found a scalpel blade works better.
I have been told that way I won't know who has had them and who hasn't. Not so, there is always a little scar/mark on the udder. Ours are always on the back of the udder, not between teats.
Susan, that is a good article of Gabriella Nanci, interesting what she says about hereditability. yes, that is not good in the photo of the bull, the teats are down on the scrotum, they should be in front. It can indicate poor rear attachment in his heifers.
Kim, I like your way of recording the extra teats, if there is multiple genes /environment involved, I suppose they won't ever show a pattern.
I find some of what Gearld Fry writes as to be so illogical, no scientific sense. Not sure how extra teats can affect butterfat either. LOL
Barb, I just have to cut them off, if I had to look at them every day it would drive me totally crazy LOL
Carol, that must have been a disappointment, we all buy things sight unseen and hope for the best.

[hoperefuge]

Well, in case you were interested carragheendexters, I have now officially seen my first bull calf with 2 extra teats.   Very nicely built, energetic little guy born last night.  Ah well, I guess he's beef.  Some things just don't need to be passed along!

Kim