Breeding the color dun

[tabbylouu]

Hi all! I'm a newbie here so I hope I'm posting in the right place  . I'm very new to the dexter breed, I bought my first steer not long ago and fell in love. He's 4 months old but only the size of a newborn holstein (I'm used to the big girls!) which astounds me! 

So anyway, I've been researching and trying to learn about them and their color genetics (which isn't as complicated as it seemed at first) and I've got the codes and what they mean and I pretty much have the basics down, but I'm curious to know if anyone has tried breeding the dun color only? Or is that even possible?



My boy is dun and that color appeals to me greatly. I'd love to, in the future, start my own herd and breed the color dun. If anyone has and experience or advice there I'm all open to learn more!

[cddexter]

Hi TL:

Nothing easier.

It will be instant, if you use just duns, or take a little time if you use duns x black with dun, or black to black when both carry dun. I'd suggest you don't use reds, as this will complicate things.

So, DUN 101:

It sounds like you've already figured things out, but just in case, here's the basics.

Red (two different ones but they look the same-ish, so don't sweat it) and black are on one locus, dun is on a different locus.

Red is recessive to black, but dominant to dun, which is why I suggest you don't start with animals that are or carry red.

Dun is a recessive gene that must be homozygous to be expressed. It overrides black. It doesn't override red.

If you start with duns without any red genes, you will always get dun. Quick solution.
If you start with black or red but carrying one dun allele and maybe a red, then you'll take quite a long time to get nothing but duns. Long solution.

Go to the American Dexter Cattle Assn website and scroll down until you are offered the opportunity to search the site. Enter Color Genetics in the search field, and click. You will be directed to a number of articles and tables, all of which will either confuse the heck out of you, or be helpful. There is a PDF with a table of alleles and color results which will explain the combinations and their results. Unfortunately it wasn't meant to stand alone, so it doesn't explain the color genes. ED is black, E+ is red, e is red (on one locus), b is dun, B is black (on a different locus)

I'm confident of my opinions, as I did the original color research in 1997, identifying three (four) colors: black, dun, red and (wild) red, and published the results. Another breeder, John Potter, worked with a uni prof. on dun specifically, and published a scientific paper in 2002.

(and, she said not too modestly, if you are interested in the dwarf gene, then do the same search, but enter CHONDRODYSPLASIA, which will take you to an article on chondro with lots of pictures, which I wrote to 2008.)

What other traits are you interested in? Not all Dexters were created equal.

Feel free to ask for help. I'm usually around somewhere, although recently retired from Dexters after 35 years.

Cheers, Carol Davidson.

[tabbylouu]

Thank you for the information! I've acquired a heifer now, she was/is a bottle calf. She's black but I don't know what colors she carries yet, I'll probably have her tested for color and milk status next spring. I've completely fell in love with her! Even though she is black she's staying here for good. I can still work with that color. It seems like every calf born on farms around here this year have been mostly red. Within my researches one thing I'd like to breed for along with black/dun is true short Dexters. The look of them really appeal to me.

[Pinevalleydexters]

Sept 4, 2017 10:13:10 GMT -5 cddexter said:

Hi TL:

Nothing easier.

It will be instant, if you use just duns, or take a little time if you use duns x black with dun, or black to black when both carry dun. I'd suggest you don't use reds, as this will complicate things.

So, DUN 101:

It sounds like you've already figured things out, but just in case, here's the basics.

Red (two different ones but they look the same-ish, so don't sweat it) and black are on one locus, dun is on a different locus.

Red is recessive to black, but dominant to dun, which is why I suggest you don't start with animals that are or carry red.

Dun is a recessive gene that must be homozygous to be expressed. It overrides black. It doesn't override red.

If you start with duns without any red genes, you will always get dun. Quick solution.
If you start with black or red but carrying one dun allele and maybe a red, then you'll take quite a long time to get nothing but duns. Long solution.

Go to the American Dexter Cattle Assn website and scroll down until you are offered the opportunity to search the site. Enter Color Genetics in the search field, and click. You will be directed to a number of articles and tables, all of which will either confuse the heck out of you, or be helpful. There is a PDF with a table of alleles and color results which will explain the combinations and their results. Unfortunately it wasn't meant to stand alone, so it doesn't explain the color genes. ED is black, E+ is red, e is red (on one locus), b is dun, B is black (on a different locus)

I'm confident of my opinions, as I did the original color research in 1997, identifying three (four) colors: black, dun, red and (wild) red, and published the results. Another breeder, John Potter, worked with a uni prof. on dun specifically, and published a scientific paper in 2002.

(and, she said not too modestly, if you are interested in the dwarf gene, then do the same search, but enter CHONDRODYSPLASIA, which will take you to an article on chondro with lots of pictures, which I wrote to 2008.)

What other traits are you interested in? Not all Dexters were created equal.

Feel free to ask for help. I'm usually around somewhere, although recently retired from Dexters after 35 years.

Cheers, Carol Davidson.

I have been researching color genetics, and right now our three cow and two calves are red. I was thinking about a dun bull, of course I would complicate things. They all carry one dun gene, one cow is homozygous for dun bb. 

Most likely I would get black calves since red is dominant to dun. I am wondering if I had a dun bull that didn’t carry red? I do like black but would like to have dun also.
We do breed for more than color, color is a bonus, temperament, udders, feet, etc are top of the list.

I am looking ahead to our next bull, we have had all three colors, our bulls have always been red. 

[cddexter]

Sorry for the delay, Cathy, I didn't notice your reply.

If you know what a Punnett square is, you can do the combos easily. You don't say which 'red' you have or if you have both, but both act the same, so I'll call them all 'e' for the sake of argument. You'd need to know the makeup of the bull. He could be dun with or without a red gene, and this makes a HUGE difference.

The one red cow homo for dun (rrbb) TIMES a dun bull of unknown color combo could produce:

rrbb x EDrbb = rrbb (red calf, with two brown genes) OR rEDbb (dun calf, with one red gene, one black gene)
rrbb x EDEDbb = rEDbb (dun calf, with one red gene, one black gene)

The other four females are red hetero for dun (eeBb), so with a dun bull of unknown color combo:

if he's dun carrying red:
rrBb x EDrbb = rrBb or rrbb or EDrBb or EDrbb. That's red carrying one dun gene, red carrying two dun genes, black carrying one red and one dun gene, or dun carrying one red gene, one black gene.

if he's dun NOT carrying red:
rrBb x EDEDbb = rEDBb or rEDbb. That's black carrying one red gene and one dun gene, or dun carrying one red gene and one black gene.

See why you want to keep away from red???

cheers, c.

[Pinevalleydexters]

Jul 5, 2019 23:45:15 GMT -5 cddexter said:

Sorry for the delay, Cathy, I didn't notice your reply.

If you know what a Punnett square is, you can do the combos easily. You don't say which 'red' you have or if you have both, but both act the same, so I'll call them all 'e' for the sake of argument. You'd need to know the makeup of the bull. He could be dun with or without a red gene, and this makes a HUGE difference.

The one red cow homo for dun (rrbb) TIMES a dun bull of unknown color combo could produce:

rrbb x EDrbb = rrbb (red calf, with two brown genes) OR rEDbb (dun calf, with one red gene, one black gene)
rrbb x EDEDbb = rEDbb (dun calf, with one red gene, one black gene)

The other four females are red hetero for dun (eeBb), so with a dun bull of unknown color combo:

if he's dun carrying red:
rrBb x EDrbb = rrBb or rrbb or EDrBb or EDrbb. That's red carrying one dun gene, red carrying two dun genes, black carrying one red and one dun gene, or dun carrying one red gene, one black gene.

if he's dun NOT carrying red:
rrBb x EDEDbb = rEDBb or rEDbb. That's black carrying one red gene and one dun gene, or dun carrying one red gene and one black gene.

See why you want to keep away from red???

cheers, c.

Thank you for the reply cddexter 
We are looking at a bull that is dun, he has a sire that carries red, dam that is homozygous dun. He is being tested to see if he carries red which is what I would want if we decide to go this route. 
I found the ADCA Color Genetics Fact Sheet www.dextercattle.org/edu/genetics/ADCA%20Dexter%20Color%20Genetics.pdf
I worked through each color combinations for each cow, which as you said would depend on if the calf picked up red or black and then the dun gene or genes. After having three Dexter bulls that were red I feel like trying something different even though I know the odds are stacked against me having all red cows, and if a red cow is homozygous dun she will still be red in appearance. But what is life without challenges?

[cddexter]

If I knew how to access emoticons, I'd type in a rueful smile. smile. c.

[Pinevalleydexters]

We decided to stay with red, since red to red will always be red. However our current bull is deep with the dark nose and eyeliner as does our next bull, so it’s interesting to see how that trait passes on to their progeny.