Looking for Legacy Bull

[onthebit]

Point taken!

genebo said:

onthebit said:

So Genebo, what you are saying is that the paper is more important than the animal?

No, never.

It is important that some of the original seedstock be preserved. Since we can't keep any of the old time animals alive (they die of old age), then we must keep breeding animals that remain true to the old types.

A pedigree is just a tool. It's the same thing as you looking up your ancestry, except with a pedigree it's kept in a central place and is well organized. It's useful to help you pick out animals to breed together that will be likely to have certain traits. It also helps you pick animals to line breed or to avoid inbreeding.

A few animals have an ancestry that branches out into other breeds. Their ancestors from other breeds brought a particular trait that the breeder thought desirable.

However, genetics is not simple, it's super complex. Sometimes an undesirable trait slips in with the desirable one. If this is not discovered until all the animals in the breed have been affected, then there is no recourse.

This is where keeping original seedstock is so important: If things do go badly, then we can turn to the original seedstock and use it to restore the breed. A pedigree helps us locate descendents from the original seedstock.

You can go to the animal shelter and get a mixed breed puppy that turns out to be the best darn dog in the world. It's never going to win the Westminister Dog Show, though. Sometimes the paper does count for something.

I feel so strongly toward Little Orphan Annie, my Dexter/Shorthorn cow. She's one of the gentlest souls on this green earth. She makes beautiful little babies with Brenn. But none of her offspring can be called Dexters. They have no papers. It doesn't change the fact that they're wonderful. They're just not Dexters.

So that's my proof that the animal is more important than the paper.

[copperhead]

I love the idea of preserving the original type of a breed, but in a real world, it's not too practical. If you look at Herford, or Angus cattle from 1958 and today , you wouldn't even recognize them. They have been bred up to the standards the market demands for todays consumers. That is the blessing and curse of the Dexter, today. I want a more commercial animal, that I can sell and actually make enough for them to pay for the feed and time I put into them. Others want strictley to raise them to preserve the "legacy" of the old time Dexter. It doesn't make either one of us wrong, and actually enables each to have a product that is marketable. This is why I looked for a good, big, polled , black bull. I have a really old timey looking dun short leg, bull, but he's probably going to be food for my family, because they are not very marketable. (he has all those bad bulls in his background)
Just some of my thoughts on the subject......
P.J.

[liz]

Hey P.J. what you are saying makes sense. I actually think it is great that everyone has their own idea about breeding..... at least those that have one! Whatever market you are looking at, breed the cow/bull to the best of your ability, improve traits and sell the best cow/bull you can. That's what will make our breed survive and probably all of us keep arguing! The problem that I have is the people who breed without thought to the outcome. Liz

[marion]

Gene, How do you define 'seedstock' and what do you mean by 'breeding into a corner'? 'Improving traits' - what those words mean to me: Straight, strong backs, deep bodies, better feet, not going over my preferred limit of 42 inch height for non-carrier cows, etc. There are plenty of Dexters out there that have just been multiplied, with no particular goal in mind. Breeding for well-attached udders, well-spaced teats and more milk for example, does not mean changing the breed or going outside the breed for the genetics..marion

[liz]

Gene I look at my cows and I see good qualities and I also see the need for improvement. My cows are small, around 40", chondro free and the two that have been milked are fair to excellent in milk. These two, mother and daughter both have flat feet and teats that only I could love Galaxy, improved the udder attach and milk volume in the daughter, but unfortunately did not improve the teats or the feet. When you look at your cows, are they all perfect or do some have areas that could be improved? What I was talking about was that any breeder has an image of what they would like to attain ....or they are not a breeder, they just let the animals go at it. When you pick a bull, do you not look at the dam, his daughters or do you just pick any bull for any cow? Too often people have just 'bred' their cows without thought of the resulting calf. This is why, even though all of our worldwide associations, talk about the 'milkiness' of the breed, I often hear about getting a measly 2 or 3 cups of milk, from a house cow. Changing the breed from a small beefy little milker, is not what I am trying to do. In fact am trying to meet those standards and produce good, useful little farm animals, without chondrodyslasia. And the last is just my opinion, not meant to strike at the hornet's nest, as Deb put it! Liz

[windmill]

In breeding for certain quilities a person would want to breed a fine bull to a really good cow, that is the direction I would normally go. I have a 5 year cow that was the second female that I bought when she was really to young to be weaned. Just starting out and did not know what I know now. As she developed she had none of the qualities that I would look for in a female now. To be truthfully she is my lest favorite animal on the place. But as time goes the last 2 years with the bull I am using now she has given me the best calves out of all the others. Who would have thought it was possible. To me she is shorter than I normally like in height and in length. Do not like the shape of her head, tail placement, disposition, on and on. But when she drops a little one from the bull I am using. Wow I got to looking at her history on the pedigree page and to my surprise my brother in laws Dad own one of her great great grand parents in the 70's. That was really something to me that seems kind of special. I guess in the long run it is up each person what they are looking for in their animals.

[lazyj5]

windmill said:

Wow I got to looking at her history on the pedigree page and to my surprise my brother in laws Dad own one of her great great grand parents in the 70's. That was really something to me that seems kind of special.

That is so neat. Does he have any pictures of his Dexters from that time?

"I guess in the long run it is up each person what they are looking for in their animals."

That is what is so intriguing about Dexters. Some folks raise them for beef, and focus on breeding those qualities. Some prefer milking, and select those traits. Others want the true dual purpose animal. While still others want very small cows and prefer shortlegs. Some like horns, some like polled. Some want only red, or black or dun. Some want only certain bloodlines.

None of these choices are wrong, but difficulties arise when one person's view of what is truly a Dexter does not agree with someone else's view. Unfortunately, instead of meeting these differences with open minds and a willingness to work together, it often ends in a fight. No one wins and Dexters lose.

[copperhead]

Just to jump into the fray, one more time. I do think we need to breed for better feet, and udders espicially. For a long time, Dexters were kinda being raised by people who really didn't know what they had and just bred a bull to a cow. I know that I really look for good feet in a breeding animal, because thats where Dexters are weak. An animal with bad feet can't travel the hills and get her daily intake of nurishment, pure and simple.
Maybe a better phrase would be to maintain the good qualities of our Dexters and cull the bad ones. It really doesn't matter how it's phrased, we have the responsibility to breed the best little cow we can, so I will look for a bull with good feet, and who has good udders in his background. I won't breed animals with flat, crossed over feet or an udder so bad the calf can't even find them, or if he can, starves to death because she won't produce any milk. To me, that improves the breed, just by maintaining the admirable traits, and trying to keep down, the bad ones.
Just my thoughts, P.J.