Saving Ms. Fermoy

[kansasdexters]

Genebo,

What about the fact that Ms. Fermoy has Linden Pirate (Reg. No. M1703, DOB: 11/05/1954) in her pedigree (multiple times)? Linden Pirate was born in England and imported into this country in the 1950's. He is the sire of Peerless Winston, and the grandsire of Peerless Pirate. Peerless Winston's dam was Framfield Kestrel 4th, another imported (1950's) Dexter. Neither of these animals trace back to the original American imports. They were both imported from England in the 1950's, and if you look up their pedigrees in the Dexter Cattle Society online pedigree, they have incomplete pedigrees. Can you give some facts about these more modern English imports?

Patti

[wdd]

Thanks Gene that was a better/longer explanation than I expected. I don't fault anything that is going into your decission nor your use of Brenn. He definately has produced many Dexters that have satisfied a variety of owners. I was simply thinking along a color genetic rational. If you were to breed/flush your heifer with an E+/E+ bull that had acceptable breeding and take a red heifer from that breeding and breed/flush to Brenn you wouldn't stand any chance of loosing any red gene since you would only get red animals or red carriers. (Red Baron was the only one I was aware of since I haven't done a complete investigation of older Red AI Bulls that have available semen). Then any red carriers could be bred back to red bulls and start the process again. Again that is only my throughts about how I would spend your money:).

[legendrockranch]

Gene,

I guess your comment below comes down to your interpretation of the meaning of the word "flaw".

Jun 15, 2010 22:43:32 GMT -5 @genebo said:

I can't name a flaw in Brenn's makeup.

I checked quite a few dictionaries, the majority of them use the word "defect" when describing the word "flaw".

So even though you "can't name a flaw in Brenn's makeup" in other peoples opinion he is flawed, since he is a "carrier" of chondrodysplasia which is a genetic defect.

Congratulations on the heifer calf.

Hope I related that well enough so we don't start a war here.

Barb

[legendrockranch]

Oh My Genebo!!! I think you went a little overboard and into the deep end with your comments about me in your post... While it is true that I am not fond of any lethal genetic defect as a general principal, I have NEVER used the words "hate" or "hatred of" in reference to any chondrodysplasia carrier animals or those who love them and breed them. How you can compare a lethal mutation like chondrodysplasia to a non-lethal mutation like polled, is beyond my comprehension. While it is true they are both are mutations that is about all they have in common.

I was not trying to be insulting about Brenn or your breeding program but merely making a simple point. If you perceived my comments as a personal insult I apologize, they were not meant to be.

Also, for your information, I can take the heat and if you think that your tongue lashing will make me tuck my tail and go away and cower in the corner, you don't know me very well. I have never been one to look for a fight but by the same token, I do not mind defending my personal point of view. So please, don't hold you tongue.

Barb

[marion]

Gene, If you are trying to save "American Red" in particular, do you think the newest technologies will be able to verify that Ms Fermoy is indeed a pure Dexter, or could be that red is from a Tarentaise? (Ms Fermoy's birth farm kept Tarentaise cattle). I ask this because I know you like to verify pedigrees wherever possible, and recently a famous Jersey family (Gratitude), where an elite cow was an embryo donor and dam of AI bulls, was (using the newest technology) found to be part Holstein and they are now deregistered...marion

[marion]

Hi Gene, My question was a simple one, and had nothing to do with Brenn, Bullfinch etc etc. It simply had to do with "American Red" and the heroic effort to "save" it. Whatever floats your boat..
Surely, my question is relevant to the discussion. Over several years, some pedigrees were questioned because of 'research' on what cattle were in the neighbourhood, or on certain holdings during certain periods of time. Here we have a cow that is being HELD UP as being one of the few, or maybe the only, living example(s) of "American Red", from generations of black cattle. She was born on a farm that 'research' tells us, had some pedigree problems and Tarentaise cattle on the place. Tarentaise (correct me if I'm mistaken), are E+. Then, a rare red Dexter heifer is born.
Using my own admittedly limited brain power , I have deduced that the same questions might be raised about Ms Fermoy, that have been raised in the last few years, about other animals. Sorry if I touched a nerve.
I think it's great that you have had success with the embryo transplant, and that you now have a nice heifer on the ground..marion

[cddexter]

Hi Gene, here I am....

I never owned Fermoy. Please correct your statement.

I can see I'd better not disappear to the Aegean again for a while. Too much fun going on here.

"Dwarfism is only a defect if you perceive it to be. A true genetic defect would be the polled condition, wherein the animal is normally horned, but has lost the code to make horns, through the fault of a defective gene."

What about: Polled is only a defect if you perceive it to be. A true genetic defect would be the chondro condition, wherein the animal is normally proportionate, but has lost the code to make correct long bone growth, through the fault of a defective gene.

Thanks for the laugh. c.

[kansasdexters]

Genebo,

I sent you the transfer history (taken from the ADCA Herd book records) of Ms. Fermoy over a year ago. Carol Davidson was never shown to have been one of the owners of this cow. If you kept my email, then you have the complete record of the recorded transfer history of Ms. Fermoy. I don't understand why you keep making claims that aren't backed up by the actual ADCA registry records.

Patti

[kansasdexters]

Genebo,

Owners can't vaccinate an animal for Bang's (brucellosis), only a licensed veterinarian can do this. When an animal is vaccinated for Bang's, it receives a special tattoo in its ear and a USDA metal ID ear clip. The veterinarian records the animal's age (and it must be less than 12 months old and older than 4 months old in order to receive this vaccine - that's why it's referred to as a "Calfhood Vaccination"), ID number, owner's information (address, county). The owner signs the form (and receives a copy) and the vet signs the form and keeps 2 copies, one of which is sent to the State Agricultural department for their records. So your story about Ms. Fermoy getting her Bang's vaccination as an older animal and then testing positive for Bang's doesn't really make any sense. If you believe that story, then have her tested for Bang's now and see if she tests positive. It's a $12 test and if she ever tested positive for Bang's, then she will still test as positive. Why don't you check that out?

Ms. Fermoy was born on 10-9-1991 and she was sold as a heifer from Charles Pacheco to Fred Chesterley. Mr. Chesterley AI-bred her to Saltaire Platinum and she produced her first registered calf (Llanfair's Polgaron, ADCA #6608) on 5-18-1994. That shows up on the ADCA Online Pedigree, as do her other calves that were bred and registered by Mr. Chesterley. The transfer history that I gave you then follows Ms. Fermoy from when she left Mr. Chesterley's herd.

Prior to Ms. Fermoy going to Mr. Chesterley's herd, she was in Mr. Pacheco's herd (born and bred there). The registration question comes up because of "when" Ms. Fermoy (and Mr. Pacheco's other Dexters) were actually registered - they were all registered in 1993, as a group. You can see that for yourself if you look at the ADCA Online pedigree. The series of registration numbers start at ADCA #5732:

Wee Gaelic Ms. Carlow, ADCA #5732, Born: 1988-07-19
Hiyu Skylark, ADCA #5733, Born: 1988-08-10
Wee Gaelic Tipperary, ADCA #5734, Born: 1988-12-10
Wee Gaelic Ms. Claire, ADCA #5735, Born: 1988-12-23
Wee Gaelic Ms. Wexford, ADCA #5736, Born: 1988-12-24
Wee Gaelic Ms. Cory, ADCA #5737, Born: 1989-01-05
Wee Gaelic Ms. Mayo, ADCA #5738, Born: 1989-04-20
Wee Gaelic Ms. Offaly, ADCA #5739, Born: 1989-06-21
Wee Gaelic Ms. Cavan, ADCA #5740, Born: 1989-07-20
Wee Gaelic Mr. O'Toole, ADCA #5741, Born: 1990-04-28
Wee Gaelic Ms. Armagh, ADCA #5742, Born: 1990-08-01
Wee Gaelic Ms. Down, ADCA #5743, Born: 1990-09-11
Wee Gaelic Ms. Youghal, ADCA #5744, Born: 1990-11-05
Wee Gaelic Ms. Sligo, ADCA #5745, Born: 1990-11-11
Wee Gaelic Kilworth, ADCA #5748, Born: 1990-11-15
Wee Gaelic Ms. Macroom, ADCA #5747, Born: 1990-12-18
Wee Gaelic Ms. Lismore, ADCA #5748, Born: 1990-12-25
Wee Gaelic Ms. Tyrone, ADCA #5749, Born: 1991-01-08
Wee Gaelic Ms. Antrim, ADCA #5750, Born: 1991-05-10
Wee Gaelic Monaghan, ADCA #5751, Born: 1991-08-08
Wee Gaelic Ms. Cork, ADCA #5752, Born: 1991-09-05
Wee Gaelic Killarney, ADCA #5753, Born: 1991-09-08
Wee Gaelic Ms. Sneem, ADCA #5754, Born: 1991-10-04
Wee Gaelic Ms. Fermoy, ADCA #5755, Born: 1991-10-09
Wee Gaelic Ms. Kenmore, ADCA #5756, Born: 1992-10-10
Wee Gaelic Ms. Blarney, ADCA #5757, Born: 1992-10-15
W. Gaelic Limerick, ADCA #5758, Born: 1992-11-25

Ms. Fermoy was born in 1991, but she wasn't registered until 1993. When she finally was registered, it was as part of a large group of Mr. Pacheco's animals. As you can see, Mr. Pacheco didn't register his animals in a timely manner. (If this had been the English DCS registry, many of these animals would have automatically been put in Appendix C registration, because of their late registrations.)

Since they didn't have DNA genotype testing (or blood type testing) done to qualify her sire and dam, Ms. Fermoy's pedigree is unconfirmed. That is unacceptable in most breed associations (including the ADCA) for an ET donor cow.
(Reference: www.dextercattle.org/genETprotocol.htm ).

If you want to see how far back the ADCA online pedigree goes on some animals, then do a search without filling in any of the search fields. That will give you a complete list of the animals entered into the ADCA online database. Go to the header line and click on the header title "ADCA #", and that will sort the list into ascending order.

Since you are working on the Ms. Fermoy project with Judy Sponaugle, perhaps you could ask her to share the relevant herd book information. I understand that she has these herd books (U.S. and English), so perhaps she may provide access to them for you.


Patti

[kansasdexters]

Genebo,

The transfer history of each animal is recorded in the ADCA Herd Books, and that's where I find it (if it was recorded and published by the ADCA registrar) -- I make the effort to look up animals that people ask about. It is a very time consuming thing to do, but I'm happy to help other Dexter breeders that inquire about a specific animal's recorded history.

The archived post #9991 was an interesting read. Perhaps Carol D. can explain in more detail how the late registrations were handled, since it sounds like she has firsthand knowledge of Pacheco's herd dispersal. It would make sense that since she was buying most of his herd, she would have wanted their ADCA registrations brought up to date prior to transferring any of those animals.

As you probably already know, not all Dexters are properly transferred from owner to owner. Thus there are gaps in the registry information simply because people fail to send in the paperwork when they sell a registered animal. Some animals get passed through several owners (along with their pedigree certificates) before someone finally brings their registry information up to date. People think that they are saving $20 (the transfer fee), but they are really being irresponsible as sellers and buyers when they fail to properly transfer an animal at the time of each transaction. Because of their failure to act in a timely manner, the ownership history of those animals may be lost. For some animals, this may be of no consequence, but for others, it becomes a significant problem.

Carol D. can tell you which specific animals she bought from Charles Pacheco and moved into Canada. Judy can check that list by looking up the transfers in the old ADCA herd books. You can look up (on the ADCA Online Pedigree) what Fred Chesterley got from the Wee Gaelic herd by seeing which animals he bred and registered offspring out of with the "Llanfair's" herd prefix. Judy can check that by looking it up in the old ADCA herd books, same as I can.

It would be interesting to see if Ms. Fermoy's brucellosis test has ever been rechecked (since she is being flushed and is currently at a veterinary facility, it would be a great time to recheck it). Please inquire and let us know the result.

Patti

[kansasdexters]

Hi Genebo,

Since you've been out and about in your field taking photos of your hay and cows, how about posting a current photo of your yearling ET heifer, Legacy Eve of Paradise? How is she doing? Will you be breeding her to Brenn, or to some other bull? Since she's about 15 months old now, it would be nice to see some current photos of her. Can you give us an update?

Thanks,

Patti

[kansasdexters]

Genebo,

She is lovely and she looks very sleek and smooth. You are sure taking very good care of her! Looking forward to seeing her calf when it's born next year. Thanks for the update.

Patti

[lavacaw]

This has been a fascinating conversation for a relative newby to learn from! The comment about the extra teats really hit home. I thought it had to do with the bloodline of my heifers. Glad to know it is not that uncommon!
I am in love with the short legged Dexters but I did not realize that it was due to a chondroplasia gene. Need to learn a lot more than I know now. Thanks for the insights!
wanda

[dexterfarm]

You have all the red you need. Have you thought of breeding to a legacy and then when you get a good red carrier line breeding him back to her.

[otf]

So sorry to read this. Not many of us had a chance to see this cow in person, but I think we all learned from her. Very special!