Color confusion

[Star Creek Dexters]

I am sure I am just missing something, but I am confused! I have read all the info on this thread and the info on the ADCA site. Wondering if one of ya'll can help me out. ;D
I was looking at this bulls pedigree, (I think he's very handsome, btw) and got confused.
www.dextercattle.org/pedigreedb/ponyweb.cgi?horse=017312&HorseName=sir%20loin&Page=1&Sort=0
He is red, both his parents are black, his sire's parents are dun & dun/red. His dams parents are back. How did he turn out red?

[copperhead]

Thats a good question, he looks dun to me, and his parentage show no red, only red'dun, which we all know means they are dun. How can this be?? I thought if they weren't out of red parents, there had to be a dna test, proving parentage and color. Hey Barb, whats the deal, do you know??

[wdd]

I haven't been around Dexters as long as most of you. I bought my first Dexters from Sandi Thomas, 2 Red and 2 black Red carriers. She told me that there was a time that all non-black animals were registered as a 'Red or Dun', most of which would be Dun animals due to the numbers and ratio they appear in the Dexter breed. Because a Red animal is and was worth more many of these breeders of Red animals would add Red to their name to indicate they were really Red animals and not Dun. Whistle R Sir Loin has an ancestor on his Dams side (Beerex's Red Baron Brian) with such a name and on the Sires side (Frosty Acres Irish Red). There are other numerous 'Red or Dun' animals on both sides of his pedigree many of whom are known Dun animals but many others could have been Red. Even many of the Dun animals could be carriers of Red. So it isn't unlikely that he is a Red animal. My Reds are in shades of light red to dark Irish Setter Red. Whistle R Sir Loin looks like many other Red bulls I have seen pictures of. It is hard to tell by his small pedigree picture but the color around his eyes appears to be red not a brown that is around the Dun animals I own or have seen. I would lay odds that if he hasn't been tested that he would in fact test as a Red animal that most likely carries or is Homozygos for Dun also.

[copperhead]

Genbo, thanks so much for that explaination. I've often wondered why Ms. Fermoy was such a "special" cow, now I know.
P.J.

[midhilldexters]

Gene, I think Sandi Thomas has a cow that is E+/E+, I think she mentioned it at the last agm. Get in touch with her to see if she still has her and who she is, I think she said she was 19 and still having calves! Boy I hope I have that right? If I don't it's because I'm OLD.

Carol

[Olga]

There is one area in the pedigree where we can deduce with certainty that Sir Loin's sire carried red.
Look at Sir Loin's sire - Rainbow Hills Jerry, a black bull, sired by a dun bull and out of a "red or dun" cow. If this cow was dun, then Rainbow Hills Jerry would've been either dun, or red (if both sire and dam carried a hidden red gene). Jerry can't be black if he comes out of two duns. So the dam, Frosty Acres Sandy, must be a red cow. That's where we get red on the sire's side.

[cddexter]

Since I'm the one who did the original color dna work, maybe I can comment here.

There are lots of homo E+ Dexters out there. Fermoy isn't the only one. I think what Gene means (and I'm sure he'll nip in here and correct me) is that the 'legacy' standard, while ignoring the possibly questionable genetics of Fermoy, believes that she is the only E+ red dexter in the U.S. that has no recorded ancestors from recent imports, and therefore her red is special. This is because as I understand it, even though an E+ gene is an E+ gene, the pro legacy types believe that an early example of the gene is different from, better than, a later example.

I don't know the genetic makeup of the Kramer's bull, but I did see a true red cow at their place around 1990. I think but would have to check, that so far all the reds in the US are E+, and that it was Lucifer who brought in little e. That statement includes animals at the Thomas', too. Since Bullfinch did not carry red, the gossip about being a red source is incorrect; therefore any red Sandi has must come from early genetics........c.