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Post by Olga on Jan 11, 2013 17:21:23 GMT -5
Great news on heifer being up and walking: with a difficult delivery like this there is always a chance of pinched nerves.
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Post by lakeportfarms on Jan 11, 2013 18:26:21 GMT -5
Happy the cow ended up being ok...sounds like a pretty good size calf. The bulldogs I've seen were usually less than about 15 lbs. and 1/2 or less the size of our usual healthy calves.
Gene was right, even breeding chondro to chondro all the time, the odds are not in favor of what you experienced, but all your preparation helped you handle it as well as possible and save the life of the cow. Congratulations on that, and now you have a milk cow for a while. You already mentioned saving the colostrum, that's good.
Since it went full term I would think that the length of lactation wouldn't be affected either? I believe an early (5-7 months) bulldog typically results in an abbreviated lactation period.
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Gorignak
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Post by Gorignak on Jan 11, 2013 18:51:15 GMT -5
Oh boy,
The "calf" weighed right at 20 lbs. Head the size of a cantaloupe, 1" legs, and a huge distended abdomen that was full of perfectly formed internal parts. But, it formed a squishy plug that was impossible to remove.
The vet was sure he could pull it out after the head was removed .... not even close.... He had to cut the body into two parts.
The link to the pictures is below, or if I post this first, I will add them tomorrow. Not for the squeamish....but you don't need to be "here" if you're squeamish.
I will get around to thanking everyone personally who called or emailed. I don't want to set up a hierarchy by listing them here....WOW, you really made an impression on the rest of the family. The amazing thing that I learned was that you are all not the SOB'S that you seem to be.....no kidding, some of you are downright pleasant to talk to. ......don't expect the same from me. I am incorrigible......they had to take out all the mirrors in the house for the arguments I used to get into with the idiot behind each one.
I picked up the whole gamut of opinions along the way today ....from small-arms fire to light artillery. It is to your credit that you retain any semblance of civility while you deal with Chondro/non-chondro.....PHA......ADCA/PDCA/Legacy...... and now polled/horned, and probably a couple I don't know yet and am better off ignoring.
So.....as I am floating in that post-partum glow that usually only gals know about....despite the outcome......I would probably have to inform/warn all of you that even the most divergent opinions that I received today ....ARE ALL CORRECT.....a little bit.
So, onto our metamorphosis.
Chondro is a curse......but, it is not a scourge. It is a manageable problem that must be addressed by any sincere Dexter owner. I will try and isolate, manage, and limit my interaction with chondrodysplasia. We had the "near impossible".....a full term, bloated, distended, monstrous mutation that will alter all of our outlooks forever. No need for the grief..... AVOID IT ...TEST....TEST.....TEST
PHA is a scourge. Any reasonable system would implement protocols that would eliminate it promptly from the "system". PERIOD. I will not endure having a "waterbaby"
Much ado about nothing for the rest, EXCEPT, I do think that breed standards are like constitutions....they should be VERY difficult to amend. So I find myself aligned with the diminutive, horned, multi-purpose faction. NO, I did not say chondro-positive cabal. That is actually, at this late date in the breed's evolution, ...... A PERSONAL CHOICE.
TO be continued......the kids just decanted several bottles of Alana's plum/blackberry wine, and I have to go review the day with them. I will continue this and make sure the pictures get posted tomorrow. I'm done arguing with the idiot in the mirror for tonight.
We just froze a gallon of colostrum.....the heifer is grumping and moaning a bit.... but is clean and eating a little alfalfa in a stall next to her little sister. WE are very, very happy to have pulled through that one.....We are exhausted.
Oh, and we met a very competent, pleasant VET....
Thank you all...we were impressed and delighted.
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Post by ssrdex on Jan 11, 2013 19:25:37 GMT -5
Relieved your cow (she is a cow now, right?) appears ok. Sounds like things could've been much worse & you handled the situation well. Bad breeding choices or ignorance can potentially devastate an investment for sure. Glad this herd is yours now & you have a handle on things.
Joel
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Gorignak
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Post by Gorignak on Jan 11, 2013 20:25:55 GMT -5
If you don't want this to happen ...TEST.... I fed my heifer well and kept her body mass up, and helped her out of a poor health situation.... and may have contributed to this by treating her so well. But chondro/chondro sets you up for this s1247.photobucket.com/albums/gg626/Upside_Downs_Farms/Bulldog%20Calf%20Jan%202013/This is the link to the album, and you can scroll through the pictures.If you click on them you can zoom right into the nightmare. Nearly 20 lbs......fresh poop on it's butt....intestines full of whatever it is they are eating at first......EVERYTHING in the right place....just the wrong size. The HUGE distended abdomen was the focus of one of the forum members who called me. He/She told me to forget all the other advice and get a vet out there to cut the calf apart...or do a C-section..... In the other ear, the vet was saying that he was going to have to cut it apart, or do a C-section. He had to cut the torso into 3 pieces, not 2 as I posted before. AND, he had to empty the intestines and then glove them out....the abdomen was huge. This is a TYPICAL situation where the heifer is being cared for like a princess.... We were not OVERfeeding her....but we have a bond with our livestock (100+ animals) they eat as good as we eat, and their health and well being are our concern. AND.....we are in the middle of a mind boggling drought, so I have to rely on LOW quality hay.....molasses/protein tubs, and supplements. We avoid grains that disrupt the rumen chemistry, but have been feeding the 16%-18% "hay extenders" that are mostly cottonseed meal/corn gluten/etc that maintain the cellulosic (sp?) bacteria. WAS THIS CALF EVER "ALIVE" ? IT HAD ALL THE HALLMARKS OF A "LIVE" CALF AT THE END. WIERD-O-RAMA More thanks and thoughts to come.... then, let's get Olga to move this to the calving/birthing threads Mike
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Post by Cascade Meadows Farm - Kirk on Jan 11, 2013 21:22:22 GMT -5
WAS THIS CALF EVER "ALIVE" ? Yes, 100% alive and with a functioning brain until some point in the delivery process. It's even possible for them to be "born" alive for a few seconds in the case of Cesarian, but they almost certainly wouldn't be able to breath so they would suffocate immediately. Even the ones that abort at 5-7 months are very much alive until just a day or three before they abort. Their deaths cause the abortion.
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Post by copperhead on Jan 11, 2013 21:26:51 GMT -5
WOW, what a nightmare. Your being on top of the situation surely saved the heifers life, good job, Mike. I wouldn't even considet culling her, it wasn't her fault and she sounds like a good girl, she let you help her, a lot of them won't.
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Post by emgiger on Jan 11, 2013 21:33:20 GMT -5
Mike,
So glad your girl is doing well. I applaud you for being prepared and keeping a cool head. What you have gone through is not for the faint of heart. What a wonderful group of folks that pitched in with help/advice,
Eileen
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Post by laughingllama75 on Jan 11, 2013 21:42:42 GMT -5
So happy your cow is doing well. I hope she fully recovers, and leads a long and productive life. Thanks for sharing those pictures....I am sure it was difficult to do so. Hopefully something positive can come from this outcome.
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Post by cddexter on Jan 11, 2013 22:23:22 GMT -5
Mike, how big are your hands? The average hand is 8 inches wide if you spread the thumb and fingers out and measure from the tip of the thumb to the tip of the little finger. Usually same length from tip of thumb to tip of middle finger, too. Make a fist: from the tip of the thumb to the little finger knuckle, that's usually 6 inches.
Even with big hands, the head doesn't look all that big. Check out the head on the bulldog on the ADCA genetics/chondro site. It was approx. 6 inches wide, perhaps even a little bigger than yours. It was reported to be about 8 months old.
First, I'll bet this is the last time you ever take that chance again. A quick learning curve, even if unpleasant. Second, the bulldog just reinforces your vet's opinion of Dexters, or if it's his first exposure, not a good introduction. This is not good, as he will be a negative ambassador for the breed, probably forever. He'll have seen other anomolies, but no others where the breed promotes a defect.
It's a good thing in that you were very upfront and honest, as I think your posts and photos may give pause and forethought to some who've never experienced a bulldog and have been lulled by all the pro-dwarf comments about how it's not really a big deal. Maybe now some will realize it IS a big deal, and can have some pretty nasty repercussions.
You are very lucky the heifer came through okay, and she is very lucky you were there and willing to resolve things properly. I know they are very resilient, but she's going to be sore and leaky for a while. Especially if the vet had to evacuate the bowel inside her, keep an eye on her to watch for any infection.
You did a fabulous job. Take a bow.
best regards, carol d.
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Post by lakeportfarms on Jan 11, 2013 23:01:13 GMT -5
Carol is right, from the photos it doesn't really look that large, maybe only slightly more developed than those some of us have seen. It's possible that your heifer's condition may have increased the difficulty.
Though we all hope for the best, it's also a good time to remind everybody that you don't want to wait too long once the signs of active labor kick in, especially for those that have not had a vet at the ready who knows you well. As Carol mentioned, time was of the essence and if this had gone on too long the risk of serious infection is great and can result in the loss of the cow. Also, Mike had a lot of information already at his disposal and had done his homework which helped the vet make the decision of which way to proceed if he wasn't aware of the complications that can result from a bulldog or especially PHA calf. Since Mike had tested for PHA, it was off the table as a possible cause. I'm happy it was not a c-section, which is pretty hard on the cow. Well done!
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Gorignak
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Post by Gorignak on Jan 12, 2013 7:27:59 GMT -5
I hate/love photography. We did not take the time to do the professional job that we are capable of. Depending on lens length, a few inches difference in positioning can cause perspective shifts.
My hands are 10 1/2 inches from thumb to little finger......HUH...... yes, 6'3" tall and size 15 shoes are too small...16's are a bit large.Yes, you can get me XL-tall shirts for Xmas. No, I hate basketball.
The carcass weighed 19+ lbs, and probably lost a pound or two in liquid as it was sectioned and removed.......small calf. Probably large on the bulldog scale. That is the data point to consider when comparing. FULLY developed
BUT....the grossly bloated and distended abdomen was a worse problem than the head. It was so flaccid, that it formed a plug when pulled intact. As all know, the skeletal development is the key.....the body has little skeletal rigidity.
I have the AM chores to do, and have to work with the heifer....get the trimmer out and clip her bag....wash her up some ....I think the near-gallon of colostrum is a good sign. She stood well getting milked...I have the stanchion half finished.... we expected a calf getting most of the milk for a couple of weeks.
I will do a wrap up later today. Again...appreciate does not begin to describe our feelings toward the help we got yesterday. While the information required careful filtering, we relied on it heavily as we progressed. The final call was from one member who described in no uncertain terms what we were dealing with, and the limited options. The vet was 10 feet away, completing the more favorable of those options.
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Post by lakeportfarms on Jan 12, 2013 8:08:20 GMT -5
Mike, Remember the stanchion doesn't have to look like one of your pieces of furniture
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Post by cddexter on Jan 12, 2013 11:11:36 GMT -5
hans, that's the best reply ever! ;D
Mike, I'm so glad your loss was limited. Thanks so much for being smart in your dealings with the issue, and especially thanks for not giving up on Dexters. The problem does NOT lie with the cattle. I'll bet there are a lot of people on this board who've just had a real heads-up from your posts.
Thanks for being here. carol d.
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Gorignak
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Post by Gorignak on Jan 12, 2013 15:44:51 GMT -5
Okay.....Lets do this. KEEP THIS THREAD CLEAN AND COMFORTABLE. You are right, there is going to be a HUGE audience for this. Let's make them feel at home. Let's flesh this out with the finer points of a "bulldog in progress" situation....BECAUSE, OF ALL THE HELP THAT I GOT YESTERDAY...... ONLY ONE PERSON HAD ALL OF THE INFORMATION PERFECTLY ALIGNED. Only one person could completely and accurately describe everything we were in the midst of, and the only possible solution, in 100 words or less. I juggled a huge amount of information and misinformation in an 8 hour period
I have strong feelings about all of the mentioned points of contention. Some of MY personal beliefs collide with my sense of "live and let live". and have been evolving over the past 4 months....hence my absence. But I am only 1/4 German....so I can chill easier than others.
I WILL GO INTO THE CAVE AND POKE THE SLEEPING BEAR WITH A STICK..... Then I will run out and let you all deal with it. I will bring up several of the points that have been so presciently teased out of this occurrence, and I will start several more threads. We/you can have at it. On balance, it is positive for the breed.
I was preparing a finale on Word Pad when I realized from Marion's post that the gold in these posts is their focus. My post was to be "several pages" long. Let's stay focused on this event. I have several more additions to make, now that I have had a rest from the excitement. I will then break all the other questions and topics down to individual threads
I will try and complete this one this evening. I will first have one of the girls post a set of links to "calving problems"....."problem deliveries"...... and the elbow-deep, how-to article that got Alana inside to find the vestigial legs. We located some incredible information that should be available to anyone with even one family heifer/cow.
Marion....Olga....with as light a touch as possible, I would hope that all would agree to discard any of the distractions from this thread and get it ready for the next poor soul that will inevitably encounter this...... I will also review and edit anything that I have included that is not directly connected.
You folks did yourselves proud with the responses. Let's get this into a by-the-numbers lesson plan...... then have at it elsewhere.
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