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Post by LizMO on Jan 12, 2013 19:06:16 GMT -5
Yes, please do keep us informed. So thankful that your little cow made it through this. LizMo
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Gorignak
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Post by Gorignak on Jan 12, 2013 20:05:49 GMT -5
;D ;D ;D THANK YOU ALL Overview...... I received so many assurances that a bulldog calf would spontaneously abort early, that our personal probability estimate was below 5%. WRONG. This little heifer calf was fully developed....all organs in place.....intestines working , and a spot of poop below the stub of a tail. I received many assurances that a bulldog calf would not be a problem delivery. This was the theme throughout the web searches, on the earlier forum posts, and in real time as the event occurred. In fact, ALMOST EVERYONE, including the vet as he knelt beside her said they still doubted that it was a bulldog. WRONG....this time. We were readying a rope (obstetric chains are on the next town list) setup to go in and pull the bulldog out......we were assured that the tongue and head past the cervix meant the largest part had passed...... WRONG..... A full term bulldog has an enormously bloated and distended abdomen, and the entire hind part of the carcass is pliable and soft. I had the rope (good soft poly 3/16" braided in a double,hand over loop with no knot) all ready to go when the phone rang and the vet said he was on his way. That was the luckiest break of the day.THE VET PULLED BY HAND with chains.....PULLED WITH A PULLER......PULLED AND PULLED......REMOVED THE HEAD AND PULLED WITH ANOTHER PULLER.....THEN SAWED IT INTO 3 PARTS AND REMOVED THEM....20+ LBS OF CALF. HE WAS ASTOUNDED. He did allow that we were somewhat past the prime flexibility period in her labor....BUT....he learned something, and left wiser for it. All the information that we received, real time, during the process was incredibly helpful. EVEN THOUGH it was wrong when applied to our case. It allowed us to work through different scenarios.....one round of advice was delivered to my daughter as she was elbow deep in the cow..... and a cell phone was held up to her ear. A bulldog calf at this level of development cannot be pulled by the eye sockets. The last caller was the day's Jeopardy winner......"You have to get a vet out there and either cut it apart, or do a C-section, quickly" Is what I heard in a cell phone on one ear.....10 feet away I heard the vet say......" I will either have to either cut it apart, or do a C-section" ....." .......and these folks don't seem the type to look favorably on a C-section.". A BULLDOG CALF THAT REACHES THIS STAGE WILL STAND A GOOD CHANCE OF BEING A PROBLEM DELIVERY. From what I have been told, 20%+ would be a good figure to work with to expect emergency intervention. Imagine trying to push or pull a beanbag chair out a hole the size of a basketball......when you push, you get a bulge.....when you pull, you get a bulge. THE VET WAS ASTOUNDED. Though the pregnancy and attempted birth proceeded normally, there were, as of yet, unanswered differences. She dropped, then went slab sided, then her udder completely strutted.....BUT, EVEN WITH MONITORING EVERY HALF HOUR DAY, AND 2 HOURS AT NIGHT,.....We never saw an amniotic sac or anything for 24 hours of contractions.....UNTIL MY ONE DAUGHTER TOOK THE INITIATIVE AND SPREAD HER, AND SAW THE TIP OF A TONGUE ABOUT 3" IN. A huge, long, yellow, obviously dead, tongue. Unmistakable....dramatic.....and a game changer. I was on the phone in 5 minutes to Olga....and she took the initiative to post. My daughters were working the web and searching the forum, saw the post and we posted our phone #. You all took over from there. Though no matter what WE were certain of, skepticism reigned supreme that it was truly a full term bulldog. We appointed one of the twins to do the obstetric work.....she gloved up and went in.....round head, no snout, and 2 little tiny 1" legs. She did a second exploration....elbow deep, and could not find a real obvious "rear" to the mass. The rear legs, also 1", were buried in the swollen abdomen. HOW TO PRODUCE A PROBLEM DELIVERY WITH A BULLDOG CALF. It is easy.First, breed Chondro+ to Chondro+, then treat the heifer like family. We bought the cattle in worse condition than their visual appearance would indicate. Though they had had adequate feed, they had been sorely lacking in proper nutrition. We balanced their ration, provided adequate feed for continued growth, and for calf development. And in the case of the cow with a calf, we allowed for those nutritional requirements. Nobody lost weight, nobody got fat, everyone's physical appearance changed remarkably....they firmed up and fleshed out. The bull looked like he LOST weight, when in fact he trimmed up his mid section, muscled up his shoulders, and gained muscle all over. He lost a rolly-polly look that he arrived with. So, what we were doing was making slow, steady daily gains....NO CORN....we did use the pasture tubs with urea.....high molasses Crystalyx 24%, and a all natural 21% block. The ingredients are designed to keep the rumen chemistry primed for hay digestion. We also needed to socialize them, so we dish fed some with 18% hay stretcher, and some we teased with 25% range cubes that were heavily alfalfa based. The heifer with the bulldog, self regulated her consumption at about 3 lbs of 18% feed 2X a day. We presented more, but she walked away. My initial take is that the proper supplementation is self regulating. They would run from the feed to the hay pile and clean up what hay we put out 2x a day. Hay being at a premium, we learned their twice daily consumption rate quickly. She never had a lull in her nutrition. We think that this kept the bulldog on a steady development, without a bump that might precipitate an early spontaneous abortion. I AM GOING TO REPEAT MY THANKS ONCE AGAIN. I HOPE TO GET A PERSONAL NOTE OFF TO ALL WHO CALLED....I will get around to it slowly over the next week. To those of you who are monitoring this site, and have an interest in facilitating discussions like this that arise suddenly...... keep up the great effort. The heifer is up regularly, in a stall with warm molasses water and good hay. She is a bit grumpy, and sore as hell, but she loves seeing us, and is getting milked AM and PM. The colostrum is in the freezer. We are happy campers (until the vet bill arrives )
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Post by wvdexters on Jan 12, 2013 23:40:32 GMT -5
Mike,
Just read about your situation. (I've been away from the computer these past couple days; farm work) I am so sorry to hear about what all happened. You all have really been through it. Thank goodness your heifer will be OK. I would say that wine you all made is definitely a good call. Perhaps a second bottle too.
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Post by wdd on Jan 13, 2013 0:18:50 GMT -5
Wow, unfortunate situation with a good outcome (not the bull dog, loss of calf nor vet bill, but a live first timer and great milker potential). It sounds like you were well informed about the possibilities, but hit with the rare situation of a bull dog full term. The feeding you provided was well intensioned and obviously correct for the condition acheived by the Dexters you bought. Even if your feeding possibly complicated the birthing (I don't see that it did personally since a 20# bull dog or a 15# bull dog would have the same issues when trying to pull them), the bigger issue was the fact it was the first calf for your heifer which is typically harder on the animal. The body hasn't reached full growth yet so the pelvis and birth canal will be smaller and more constricted. There is more stress on the animal since she hasn't a clue what is happening and the body doesn't fully "comprehend" what it needs to do yet.
Almost a gallon of colostrum the first milking from a heifer is great. I wouldn't get that much from many of my Jersey or Holstien first timers when I was in the Dairy Business. She has a reason to be moody from all she went through and came out a trooper. Does she have edema? Edema and engorgement of the udder make for a painful milking and udder handling situation, it can take 4-7 days for the edema to clear up. Wintergreen salve can be applied after milking to help increase the blood flow and movement of the excess fluids out of the udder. Glad you can look on the bright side of the situation and look towards the future rather than be turned off by the situation and our friendly (?) squabbles on this and other Dexter sites. We all have our oppinions and come from various backgrounds and experiences. This can lead to disagreements and misunderstandings, but we all have a love for these wonderful Dexters that come in all shapes and sizes (so to speak) and choice of 3 colors.
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Gorignak
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Post by Gorignak on Jan 13, 2013 12:06:30 GMT -5
Heifer (cow now??) is doing fine. A little swelling, but we had everything in there but a backhoe....so, to be expected.
On review, besides the 12+ hours of contractions we watched .....seeing the tall, lanky veterinarian pulling for all he was worth, with his feed assisting, and nothing happening.......THAT is the low point. Also, her looking around in the hay that was wet with the amniotic fluid, for her calf, was a heart wrenching sight.
The recommendation to supply her with molasses water must have been a hit. She drank 4 gallons of warm water with about 3 cups of molasses in it. We have some really good, beautifully green square bales. She ate a good portion overnight.
We got a quart of milk in the AM milking.
We are taking an empty 200 lb molasses tub with a lid, adding rope handles, and building a mobile obstetric/surgical/trauma kit. We learned the shortcomings of transporting semi-sterile supplies in the back of a manure crusted pickup.
She is in a warm stall by her little sister whom she has not seen in a few months. they were all over each other through the boards, with a lot of head rubbing contact.
I think that the heifer thinks that Alana is her calf. After milking her, she was brushing her clean some more and the heifer started licking her hand and arm like she was cleaning a calf...it facilitates milking, as she is currently going into the cud chewing "milking trance" when Alana milks her.
I am now convinced that our feeding was not the determining factor.....she is far, far from fat since she was emptied. Her hips are visible and she has a fleshy, but far from rounded form. I DO think that we had her in top nutritional shape, and that may have facilitated continued development. As we progress, I will learn the perfect body mass index for early gestation, approaching calving, calving and re-breeding.
Thanks all for the continued advice and tips. And remember, this thread is probably going to start popping up first in Google searches for "bulldog calf" and "calving problems". We find the forum posts here near the top of the searches all the time.....SO, add whatever you know will help a "newbie".
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Gorignak
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Post by Gorignak on Jan 14, 2013 10:20:04 GMT -5
Okay.....
My heifer is 38".....I'm sure good record keeping will allow you to grace us with the exact size of the cow.
My bulldog weighed 19.5 lbs....AFTER the loss of all the fluids in disemboweling. We can better compare bananas and kiwi fruit if you provide the weight or length/girth/head circumference measurements.
I will get the head circumference later today and post.
I will need that knowledgeable vets address and phone number so I know where to have the limo driver go to pick him up and take him to my private jet and get him here promptly the next time a problem arises.
My first point is....If you are going to hold others to specifics and accuracy, please be precise and accurate also.
My second point addresses a broader topic....I was dodging it, but I will provide our experience and thoughts.
I am sure we passed through the prime point in labor for any assistance......we were working with information from web sites, this forum, AND with real time suggestions to just watch and wait. IT IS MY UNDERSTANDING from my conversations with the vet, that the process was very one directional......once the prime was passed, and loss of elasticity, reduction in the cervical dilation, and exhaustion began.....THERE IS NO RETURNING to easy solutions, there is terrible stress on the cow trying to redialate a closing cervix. The vet said that we had passed the best time for elasticity.
THIS IS AN ALMOST CERTAIN SITUATION FOR SOMEONE WHO IS NOT INTIMATELY IN TUNE WITH THE PROGRESS OF A COW'S LABOR. Someone like me.....or worse, someone who can't rapidly collate the information on 100 pages of new information, and who has not had experience triaging everything from humans to box turtles.
Sadly, despite the importance that holders of larger herds assign to their position, there is an absolute here......there are absolutely many, many, many times the number of Dexters in the hands of people with less than 5-10 than in the hands of larger herd owners.
My interest and sympathies are with the smaller owners. SO......I'll do what I did not want to do......I'll reveal the name of the informant who was frighteningly accurate in their assessment, prediction, and potential solutions.
Ya' just gotta hate a know-it-all.......playground, schoolyard emotions are so hard to discard.
Carol Davidson seems a know-it-all... problem is, when the questions concern the anatomy, physiology, personality, or processes involving Dexter Cattle , she is a treasure trove of accurate information. Carol has birthed well upwards of 200 Dexters. She has experienced first hand, some of the legendary Dexter herds on 3 continents. Her bona fides are beyond reproach. She.....told me what the problem was......told me what I was looking at......and outlined the only possible solutions.....AND ..... she supplied a brief history and scope of the exact problem. Plus, she did it in 250 words or less.
I got a lot of information that was invaluable from a pair of the other large herd owners....and I am forever grateful to them for those conversations. As I have noted, those conversations allowed me to proceed competently along he labor/birthing process. BUT..... the final call was from Carol, and she was was at her best/worst ...... If the song "Killing Me Softly" had not been written already....I could have written it after our conversation.
Gene.....the focus of your solution here, while applicable, is so narrow in scope and window of opportunity, not to mention limited to a narrow, experienced audience, that it is difficult to assign it much value.
I would appreciate if Carol would now add her conversation to me to the end of this. She can accurately descibe how often our resolution is the solution of choice in Great Britain, where chondro carriers are bred together more often.
NOT TO DISCARD/DISMAY ALL OF THE REST.....Your ongoing information allowed me to REACH THE CORRECT SOLUTION, 30 minutes before Carol's call.
With a little consideration and cooperation here I think it is a win-win for everyone. I appreciate ALL I have learned. And, Gene, once I have the process of birthing down as pat as I have building a bureau, I will avoid the $$$$ bonfire and proceed with timely intervention.
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Post by marion on Jan 14, 2013 12:07:28 GMT -5
Oh genebo, so compassionate. While you are in that mode, why not go over and delete your PERSONAL (in capitals) attack, on the chondro thread, and apologize?
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Post by cddexter on Jan 15, 2013 14:50:27 GMT -5
Mike: that's rotten of you I DON'T mean to come across as a knowitall. There's lots I don't know. But, there's lots I DO know. I try to be pretty careful to distinguish. That day I was up at 3, at work at 4, and it was only after I got home, changed, and checked this site for activity that I saw what was happening. Mike's title alone sent me from idly curiosity to whitehot alert mode in less than a nanosecond. Bulldogs tend to either be delivered okay, or not. The very fact that Mike was talking bulldog and wanted emergency info about delivery was enough to make any reply probably of an urgent nature. I figured that if he hadn't posted a result by the time I was reading the thread, things were still in progress. WAAAAY to much time had passed for this situation to have anything but a probable negative outcome unless immediate steps were taken. What Mike really needed was an accurate assessment of what was going on, options, and some viable recommendations. Most calves are very narrow and the depth is mostly in the rib cage. As Gene says, the legs bring the shoulder blades forward and in line, and minimize the area. With a bulldog there are only vestigial legs which are useless. The shoulder blades act like a dam. Mikes' comments about a plug, and pushing and pulling a shapeless mass are right on. Nothing is going to make that calf just pop out, even if she'd been an older experienced cow. Pulling from the eye sockets is a good idea for something smaller where you can't get a good grip, but with a goodsized bulldog calf, there are still those darn shoulder blades to contend with. Hans' info was really good, and under different circumstances or with a smaller bulldog would have been the right thing to do. I figured I was probably too late, but called Mike anyway. I knew from his posts that Mike was a competent, bright person with little patience for stupidity. He needed help, not platitudes. If it wasn't already too late and the heifer dead, he needed to get the bulldog out asap. Not a job for an amateur, no matter how well informed. Turned out I didn't need to call. Mike had figured it out on his own, and dealt with it. I just reinforced his opinion. I'd heard lots of stories in England, where this stuff is talked about and not hidden, where either a C-section or dismemberment were the only options for bulldogs when they were closer to term. Seemed like that was was Mike was dealing with, so passed on the info. Not a big deal. What is a big deal for me is the assumption on the part of one of the regular posters here that this all worked out okay. Traumatized and stressed heifer, ditto owner and family, vet taking away a pretty bad story to pass around the office which will be passed around elsewhere, all to the detriment of the breed, the financial loss of the calf plus having to pay a probably substantial vet bill just adds insult to injury. I know there is an inclination to play down Mikes’ experience. It certainly would make a lot of members here more comfortable. I understand that. However, I’m not sure playing down what happened is a good thing. I’m willing to bet there are a lot of members on this site who sat there, shell-shocked. Having been fed the soft sell, they had no idea that any of what Mike and his family, and the cow went through, was possible. And, I’m willing to bet that there’s going to be lurkers here who quietly sell up their Dexters, and get into something a little safer. I'm going out to give treats to Rosegay, who's to be put down on Tuesday. I have her grave site all picked out. Side hill, next to Scilla, Rose and Oleander, shade, nice view. I had hoped we could somehow go off into the sunset together, hand in hoof, friends to the end. cheers, c.
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Post by Olga on Jan 15, 2013 15:27:38 GMT -5
When Mike called me about his emergency I didn't have any valuable info to pass to him. All I learned from my one difficult delivery, is that eye sockets are a good pulling point. Just a useful tidbit of info my vet had shared. I posted asking for those with "hands-on" experience delivering a bulldog calf to help. I didn't feel comfortable posting Mike's number, so I posted mine. Then I called a large breeder for advice on his behalf. Then Mike posted his phone number. I'm glad the post served its purpose in getting Mike help. Not all of the info was useful, as Mike was dealing with a lot less common problem than most of us have encountered. The situation required flexibility based on information as it was gathered. I'm glad Mike had a vet willing to come to his farm. Large vets are in short supply now and many do not do farm calls.
I think a lot is to be said for lax attitude toward breeding choices. Some of it is due to stupidity. Some of it is due to lack of curiosity - some people have no interest to learn and look into things. Some of it is due to accidents or mix ups. Sometimes bad breeding choices are due to a calculated risk. Which of these reasons can we control in regard to Chondro?
All I can say is, good job Mike for being attentive to the situation; good job, board, for connecting Mike to help.
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Gorignak
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Post by Gorignak on Jan 15, 2013 17:37:04 GMT -5
Thanks Guys & Gals......What I got was exactly what I needed. Lesson learned. You are all too valuable a resource to.....well, to pay too much attention to everything you say. Every piece of information was important to the outcome.
I'M GOING TO POKE THE BEAR ON ANOTHER THREAD, so lets keep the warm post-partum glow here. I achieved something that I found impossible previously, and I have paid little attention to the goings-on here for several months. This event has forced all but the most intransigent to......well..... to reconsider.
Thanks Carol for tossing out the components of a future thread. I noted that there were far more Dexters in small, often novice owners hands than in larger herds with experienced owners.
I have come to the conclusion that one should have a background check before "buying" a Dexter....just like a gun.
The first sentences in an email reply to a furniture inquiry with us is a list of reasons and places that fine quality furniture can be purchased for far less.
Folks....you ain't dummies....dummies can't raise and breed Dexter's successfully. The situation that I bought into contains more pitfalls and missteps than I have recounted. THE BUCK STOPS HERE. We will not pass on the problems. I am only halfway through sorting them out. Give me a week or two to catch up and I promise a thread that will address the problems in as non-prejudicial language as possible.
For now...all of you owe the thread started by Olga on Incidence of birth problems A REPLY. I see a lot of heavy posters who haven't jumped on that one. Charles and Carol have set the bar pretty high there. That thread can begin to focus and repair the damage done by my thread.....Hey folks...I couldn't have made this story up if I tried.
Again......Thanks to all.
Carol.....I hope it was a good run of years, lots of pictures and calves. We're thinking about you.....
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Post by ssrdex on Jan 15, 2013 18:16:31 GMT -5
Ditto on that cddexter, & be careful what you hope for...it ain't tuesday yet. I'd really miss your posts...have learned ALOT! Hand in hoof image is priceless
Joel
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Post by legendrockranch on Jan 15, 2013 19:06:19 GMT -5
I have come to the conclusion that one should have a background check before "buying" a Dexter....just like a gun. Love the comment!
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Post by lakeportfarms on Jan 15, 2013 20:23:12 GMT -5
I probably spoke to Mike shortly before Carol called him. My biggest concern was the length of time she had been in serious labor. In these cases, the cervix contracts and stays contracted and becomes like the strongest rubber band you can imagine as you try to pass your hand through. You can imagine how difficult this makes a normal delivery for the cow without assistance. Fortunately the vet was going to be out shortly and would be able to assess the situation firsthand. It's tough to figure out what's going on over the phone! Before that, I just wanted Mike (and Alana) to determine for sure it was a bulldog. That involved going in and feeling for legs. When it was determined that they were just little short vestigal legs, at that point all effort needed to go toward insuring that the heifer would be saved. Mike mentioned the poly rope and I figured it was worth a try, but told him that the calf would probable need to be cut out in pieces. A C-section was last resort. Culling the cow was to be avoided unless there was absolutely no chance of her surviving.
Gene's mention about working your hands in to stimulate contractions may have worked earlier on in the labor, but by the late stage Sheila was in it wasn't going to work. As I said, when the cervix contracts from many hours of labor you can barely get your hand in there sometimes. I had actually never heard of fingers in the eye socket until it was mentioned in this thread. The problem is, by the time you figure out you really have a problem, it's too late for many of these techniques. The hardest part is determining when it's time to intervene.
No doubt Mike's head was swimming with information, and he had received a lot of it in the couple of hours before, some of it conflicting. The vet arrived and it was time for action. Carol's call came at exactly the right moment!
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Gorignak
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Post by Gorignak on Jan 16, 2013 15:59:40 GMT -5
And....Hans really went "above and beyond" to help figure it out.
We had hundreds of pages of "birthing" information. The pregnancy progressed perfectly. Swelling of her vulva and filling of her teats proceeded over a three day period until her vulva was jiggling like a bowl of liver, and her udder was strutted perfectly.
THAT IS THE POINT WHERE SCIENCE TAKES A BACK SEAT TO...."THE ART OF BIRTHING". THE KEY INDICATOR THAT WE WERE LOOKING FOR NEXT WAS THE SAC OR MEMBRANE THAT PRECEDES THE DELIVERY. WE CHECKED HER EVERY HALF HOUR DURING THE DAY, AND EVERY 2 HOURS AT NIGHT. Friday morning, from 4 AM on, someone was with her continuously. She would have a series of 8-10 contractions in 30 minutes. Then she would get up and walk 100 yards from one grove of pine to another, lay down and have another set. She crossed that field about 10 times between 4 AM and 9:30 AM..... She is very, very strong, and lucky that she is 2 yrs 9 months old, and we got her into good condition.....
Something was missed, or amiss. After about 24 hours of HARD contractions......starting 11 AM on Thursday.....through Thursday night, and into Friday morning. Jenny decided to explore, and saw the tongue near the outside.....a long, long, yellow tongue.
I will answer any question that might put a sharper focus on the spot where we should have been worrying. It is obvious to me now that she should have progressed through the first intense contractions into birthing far earlier than we let her go.
BUT.....Thursday afternoon was probably okay....The problem point was probably reached during the night. We expected to have a calf by morning. MUCH of the available literature is skewed toward keeping people from intervening too soon, before it is necessary.
OUCH......
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Gorignak
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Post by Gorignak on Jan 17, 2013 11:36:03 GMT -5
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