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Post by carragheendexters on Jul 1, 2014 15:54:27 GMT -5
Something that Susan wrote in the Dexter video thread has me wondering. Does anyone know of any documented cases of PHA positive Dexters in the UK? You read about their short and non-short Dexters, (they don't seem to make a fuss about it) but nobody ever seems to write about PHA. I have seen the occasional mention that an animal is PHA negative but that is it.
Anyone know?
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Post by stephanie on Jul 2, 2014 2:34:40 GMT -5
I have never heard of one, a friend of mine is a vet, he was a very close friend of Beryl, who owned the Woodmagic herd and a prominent member of the UK DCS - so I think I would probably know - at the very least if there had been any actual cases in the UK Dexter Herd.
Stephanie
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Post by stephanie on Jul 2, 2014 15:44:52 GMT -5
Obviously I can't speak for other dexter owners in the the UK but I do test for PHA. I live in Wales by the way not England.
Was it actually proven that it came from a Woodmagic cow? I think you may find if you dig deeper that it was not, as there were other animals it could have and just as likely did come from at the time and it is not fair to bandy things around that might not be the truth, especially as Beryl is no longer around to fight her corner on this. There are as we know many people that have their likes and dislikes in this breed. Also just because someone is erudite and well read on a subject does not mean that everything they say is correct, as everyone in this world makes mistakes and weighs results in the direction of personal preference.
Stephanie
P.S. I only tested as my stock are Woodmagic and there had been suggestions in the past that PHA might have come from Wheatear, as far as I'm concerned that was disproved but because I knew at some point someone would question whether or not my herd was absolutely PHA free, I thought I should test.
As far as anyone else in UK testing unless there are cases - why would they? It would be a waste of money!
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Post by carragheendexters on Jul 2, 2014 17:07:20 GMT -5
Thanks Stephanie , that is what I was thinking.
Obviously an occasional Dexter person such as yourself Stephanie in UK does test, as you do sometimes see animals advertised as PHA free, but I just haven't seen much talk about it. Is your friend Duncan? Up in Scotland?
Genebo, we all know the history and the link to Wheatear, behind her PHA has never been documented. What I was asking about was documented cases, not heresay and opinions.
No, you don't have to test through Legacy, ADCA or PDCA to test for the form of PHA in Dexters, there are other labs in the world that are able to do the test and are quite capable of giving accurate results.
PS Stephanie, many people do not realise that England, and Northern Ireland, Wales, Scotland, Eire, are all different.
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Post by kansasdexters on Jul 2, 2014 17:15:22 GMT -5
Stephanie, I had semen for Trillium Cluny and his son, Aldebaran Priapus (out of Woodmagic Wheatear). I tested both of these AI bulls for PHA and Trillium Cluny was found to be PHA-free (PF/PFD), while his son, Aldebaran Priapus was found to be a PHA-carrier of the Dexter PHA variant (PF/PCD). Aldebaran Priapus' genotype was compared to Trillium Cluny's genotype and Trillium Cluny qualified as his sire. That meant the PHA mutation that he carried came from his dam, Woodmagic Wheatear. This link to Woodmagic Wheatear was further substantiated when Earlona Fillsey, a descendent of Woodmagic Wheatear, through her daughter, Cranworth Yanna, also tested as a PHA-carrier. www.dextercattle.org/pedigreedb/ponyweb.cgi?horse=12091&HorseName=Earlona%20Fillsey&Page=1&Sort=0I had correspondence on this with Beryl, before she passed away. She wrote that she had sold Woodmagic Wheatear's dam (Doesmead Diana 2nd, F08453) and had not kept any of that cow's descendants in the Woodmagic herd (Woodmagic Diana, F08934, has no registered offspring). So it appears that the Woodmagic herd effectively eliminated PHA before it could be multiplied within the herd. Woodmagic Wheatear's dam, Doesmead Diana 2nd, had the following additional registered progeny: Windward Daphina, F08771 Templeton Diana, F08968 It is descendents of these two cows that should be tested for the Dexter PHA variant in the UK. Descendents of Doesmead Daphnia, F07615, the dam of Doesmead Diana 2nd, should also be tested for the Dexter PHA variant in the UK. If Doesmead Cambo, M1960, the sire of Doesmead Diana 2nd, was an AI bull, then his semen (if available) should be tested for the Dexter PHA variant. As many UK Dexter AI bulls as possible, especially the ones collected years ago, should be tested for the Dexter PHA variant, if semen is available. The results of those tests will help determine which breeding lines in the UK are affected (if any), and where further PHA testing needs to be done. Patti
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Post by cddexter on Jul 2, 2014 19:47:00 GMT -5
Steph, yes it was confirmed that PHA came into North America via Wheatear, see Patti's proofs above. I seem to remember Duncan telling me that the DCS had tested a few animals that they considered most likely to prove carriers (descendants of the most probable) and none were, so the whole issue was dropped. Here, Rosegay was a carrier through descent, and only one of her offspring tested positive. I was incredibly lucky, as she has several bulls out there who are either on AI or were prolific, and none were positive.
Gossip in England led to claims that Cambo was a carrier beause he was known to throw the occasional dead calf. Of course, that would mean the cows he was bred to would have to be carriers, as well, so I'm thinking it's around, just not prevelent. It took 30 years for pha to be identified here....
It's great that you have tested. I'll bet you sleep better.
cheeers, c.
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Post by stephanie on Jul 3, 2014 1:51:12 GMT -5
Thank you Louise, Patti and Carol. I don't have the greatest memory and frankly back when Beryl explained it all to me I wasn't really that interested as I bought my first few dexters with the sole intention of having one or two as cows as pets because having sold my dairy herd I missed the company of cows SO much and they would provide me with a bit of really good beef now and then!!!
I have always been fussy about my stock and would never breed from anything that I thought had any problem whatever, that is what freezers are for! In particular I cannot understand anyone that keeps a cow that they are afraid of, why would you? There are enough dangers in the world! All mine are very quiet. This ethic has stood me in good stead over the years and my cattle and sheep are something I feel I can be proud of.
In my dairy herd I did have a PHA calf, the vet hadn't seen one and I certainly hadn't, it was 39 years ago, unusual back then and the cow was only 2 weeks from term. She was the stockiest of my cows, very old fashioned Dutch type, couldn't calve, yet tiny feet. The young vet that came nearly killed her trying to get it, she was exhausted in the end, wouldn't get up, we called in the senior man who immediately said it must be a C section. Because as you pull the ballooning effect of the water in the calf pushes back under its skin bulging hard against her and making it impossible to get the calf out. You wouldn't think it unless you had come across it and because the calf is dead, although it is wet, there isn't that same slipperiness either.
Stephanie
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Post by cddexter on Jul 3, 2014 8:01:03 GMT -5
Steph, your description is probably all anyone would need to see why it's a good idea to either cull or 'manage' pha until you have replacements that are clear, then cull. With it being recessive, it's such a hard thing to ferret out. I remember Jon Beever saying in his experience, it was usually the cows that you liked the most that ended up being the carrier. sheesh. Keep up the good work, cheers, c.
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Post by stephanie on Jul 3, 2014 14:08:53 GMT -5
Yes she certainly was a very nice cow, I was only about 16 or 17 when this happened but it isn't something that I will forget. I got the impression that the senior vet recognised what was wrong with the calf as soon as he put his hand inside but he didn't use the term PHA, however I believe he did call it hypoplasia or something similar, this meant very little to me at the time but in the last few years I have put 2 and 2 together.
Stephanie
P. S. This was not a Dexter but a British Friesian cow that had a what I now think was a PHA calf on my farm in approximately 1974/1975. That dairy herd was sold in 1991.
Stephanie
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Post by carragheendexters on Jul 3, 2014 19:31:33 GMT -5
Stephanie, that would not have been a great experience to go through. PHA is the cause but the actual condition is called "hydrops foetalis", that is where people get to call it "water baby". There are lots of reasons for hydrops foetalis, PHA is just one of them in cattle. In humans, viral infections in the mother and consequently in utero for the baby, cause it. (One of note that causes it is human parvovirus. A pretty harmless virus in children but devastating for pregnant women.)
I can imagine that there would have been no way out for that calf in a normal delivery, they are like balloons. Silly young vet trying to take the easiest way out.
After Patti's post I checked out the database for descendents behind Wheatear, and there would be quite a few animals living now I imagine who go back to those animals. If people with those animals were testing, I would have imagined that some positives for PHA would have shown up. These things have to start somewhere with a particular animal, so I suppose there is always the possibility that Wheatear was the starting animal.
Just wondering Carol, about Cambo and dead calves. Going by the ones that were born in Australia, there is no way that they would be born naturally, they were by caesarean. From memory, one of the cows died during surgery. The calves were huge, can't remember the weights quoted but they were massive, and before delivery, the cows abdomens apparently looked huge.
Interesting discussion.
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Post by stephanie on Jul 4, 2014 2:10:47 GMT -5
Ah yes Louise that prodded an ancient memory, he called it a hydrops calf.
Stephanie
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Post by cddexter on Jul 4, 2014 8:12:39 GMT -5
Louise, all very 4th or 5th hand gossip by the time it got to me, so I can't enlighten you. cheers, c.
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Post by carragheendexters on Jul 4, 2014 19:15:26 GMT -5
I have no Internet service and am on my phone, so this will be brief. Genebo, you really need to check your facts before you post.
There are no rumours of a second form of chondro in Australia and that it is probably PHA.
The facts are that THERE IS A SECOND FORM OF CHONDRO in Australia which is known as BD2. The gene was identified by Julie Cavanagh and we have a DNA test for it. It was not "probably" PHA.
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Post by cddexter on Jul 4, 2014 20:03:57 GMT -5
Gene, too ingenuous. c
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outofthebox
member
If you always do what you always did, You will always get what you always got.....Albert Einstein.
Posts: 78
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Post by outofthebox on Jul 6, 2014 16:42:09 GMT -5
Is there any indication as to where and/or whom introduced BD2 into Australia?
There is constant chatter re Wheatear and PHA but there doesnt seem to be about BD2.
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