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Post by sweetgrass on Feb 25, 2015 15:14:20 GMT -5
Hi everyone. My husband and I are new to Dexters (and cattle) but we have really fallen in love with the breed. They are so easy to manage and have great temperaments, they are also very hardy. I want to learn more about judging good Dexters versus less ideal models of the breed. I have attached a link to photobucket with a picture of our 4 year old bull, a 4 year old cow and a nearly 1 year old heifer. Can anyone help give their expertise to what points these animals have that are close to the breed standard? Or even far from it? I really have no idea where to start and you won't hurt my feelings - we love these animals for their personalities and presence on our farm! But I would like to know especially if our bull has good qualities or not - because I want a strong herd sire. (The black heifer is one of his daughters). Thanks! i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn28/cristygylfphe/LBJ%202015_zps0iq8bdcc.jpg
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Post by kansasdexters on Feb 25, 2015 16:57:08 GMT -5
Sweetgrass, Please take some time to familarize yourself with the following document: www.kansasdexters.com/ADCA%20CDP/ADCA_Classification_Program_Document.htmlThen, start by measuring each mature (3 years and older) animal in your herd to determine hip height and weight, compare that to the breed description and see if your animals are within the preferred size range. Then, with each animal on dry, level ground, take the following photos: Females - Front, Left Side, Right Side, Rear, Close-up of Udder from the side and the rear (hold the tail out of the way). Also take a close-up photo of their feet and legs, front, side, and rear. Males - Front, Left Side, Right Side, Rear, Close-up of Scotum from the side and the rear (hold the tail out of the way). Also take a close-up photo of his feet and legs, front, side, and rear. The next time you have a vet visit, ask him/her to measure the scotal circumference on your bull and record that measurement. Patti
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zephyrhillsusan
member
Caught Dexteritis in Dec. 2009. Member of this forum since Oct. 2013.
Posts: 1,502
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Post by zephyrhillsusan on Feb 26, 2015 8:24:26 GMT -5
sweetgrass, there are some sample photos in the document that you can use to go by. It's really hard getting animals to stand still while you take the "perfect" photo, but if you shoot a bunch of each pose, you should be able to choose the best one. It definitely helps to have one person hold the animal on a lead rope while another takes the photos. And it's not a bad idea to brush off hay and mud so they don't detract from your photos. (Or photoshop them out.) I still consider myself to be learning, but if you put up some more photos, hopefully people with more experience will chime in with some helpful comments.
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Post by lakeportfarms on Feb 26, 2015 9:38:41 GMT -5
Some smartphones (and nice digital cameras) have a rapid fire setting that you can use, about 10 photos or more in the span of 5-10 seconds. It really helps you select a better shot if the animal tends to move around on you. One of these days I need to get out and update some of the photos of ours to add to their records and possibly submit to the online pedigree page of the ADCA.
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Post by dexterfarm on Feb 26, 2015 10:15:39 GMT -5
Very difficult to tell much from the pictures. I would want to see more. I know how difficult it is to get a picture. Like hans said take a lot and hope you can get a good one where they are not moving around on you. Keep in mind not everyone has the same goals in breeding. For me I try to keep them as historically correct as possible. I like to look at the old pictures to see what they looked like 100 years ago. from what I can see the bull looks good. I like the long shaggy hair on that heifer. It really helps in our cold winters. It is difficult to tell how the young ones will turn out. It kind of depends on what growth stage they are in but I think that young one will fill out nicely. I would like to see the dun one standing in a different pose She is kind of in mid step probably do to the rough frozen snow she is on. Also helps to know what age they are.
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Post by cddexter on Feb 26, 2015 14:52:26 GMT -5
Hi sweetgass. there is a number of things you can tell from even the worst pic, so don't be put off by the naysayers. And comparing your Dexters to those of 100 years ago will only get you small animals with often bad feet, and frequently not very good udders, either. Keep in mind those Dexters of old were only a few generations (if any) removed from the original foundation animal that could have been anything as long as it had horns, was a dwarf, and red (and sometimes dun) or black. Not a high selection factor. Today, with the Dexter leaving the closed confines of the landed or titled gentry toy, and becoming more and more sought after for yield and functional traits, there's more to work toward. I haven't checked your pics, but... Some of the basic points that are desirable are longer from point of shoulder to pin than point of shoulder to ground, ie. rectangular, because the middle bits or 'saddle' are where the expensive cuts are, and the more length the more high value meat. more distance between the hip bone or 'hook' and pin means a bigger rump area to carry muscle. Compare Olga's pics of her steer and her new bull Belmont to see what I mean. smaller head and/or a proportion of 8:5 from the nose to the eyes to the poll will mean the animal is finer boned, which when butchered will yield more meat per weight of carcass. good rear attachment on udders and the scrotum of bulls. on cows do you want to reach behind and sort of hoist up the back of the udder? Yes? yuck. No? fantastic! on bulls does the scrotum hang straight down and the ligament that separates the two testes hardly show at all? Yes? yuck. No? fantastic! the higher up the back of the scrotum you can clearly see the ligament dividing the two halves, the better the rear attachment on his daughters (assuming inheritance..) teat size, shape and placement. everyone will tell you vertical teats are best. try telling that to the calf. vertical teats work best for equipment, but a calf would prefer to be able to walk over, and latch on without having to curl its tongue around the teat and bend it forward. NOT to say you want an udder that sags so badly the teats hang off at a 45 degree angle, but a little list isn't all bad. finer teats are better than big fat ice cream cones. wide muzzle is an indicator of width between the legs and pins, giving more body capacity to carry all the organs plus a calf, and wide pins helps with calving ease. a 45 degee slope from where the underside of the tail separates from the body down to the back of the pin bone. again, calving ease and cleansing. then there's all the usual stuff like foot angle (some Dexters are notorious for having flat feet, which is actually due to a low or minimal heel), clean brisket, level top line (several different faults can show up here), temperament, etc. (this is actually for susan, , who's always wanting to learn). cheers, c.
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zephyrhillsusan
member
Caught Dexteritis in Dec. 2009. Member of this forum since Oct. 2013.
Posts: 1,502
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Post by zephyrhillsusan on Feb 26, 2015 16:03:42 GMT -5
Thank you very much! I just copied all that into a document and made it into bullet points. (I love bullet points!) Once the weather's a little better, I plan to print it off and go out and look at everyone. Maybe I'll take some photos and print them out and draw on them, too. Fun, fun! I have to figure out that 8:5 nose to eyes to poll, though. Does that mean a ratio of 8 nose-to-eyes to 5 eyes-to-poll? That sounds more horse-faced (long nosed) to me, so I'm guessing that's not what it means.
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Post by cjsfarm on Feb 26, 2015 18:46:44 GMT -5
Sweetgrass,
They look very typical of the dexters you will experience for sale. I don't pretend to be an expert on judging dexters for quality, but if the cow throws good healthy calves from the bull you show, I think I would keep the bull for a few more years to see how the calves develop. If you are not happy with conformation later on, they taste great. Keeping the bull to cover his heifers will not cause problems other than show you his faults/qualities. Dexter owners tend to be more critical of their cows conformation than sometimes is needed for a family cow operation.
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Post by Cascade Meadows Farm - Kirk on Feb 27, 2015 0:25:56 GMT -5
In addition to some of the great info above, I like them to be FAST maturing (but compact). I like heifers that seem grown enough to breed at 12 months, (but we usually wait till 14-15 months). I like bulls that are masculine and ready to breed with sizable testicles at 11-12 months. Bulls should have coarse hair on their heads/necks as that's a sign of testosterone and masculinity, and I like a good masculine crest/hump on the bull's neck/shoulder area.
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Post by RedRidge on Feb 27, 2015 9:07:09 GMT -5
Several good posts above. I'll add, the two most common glaring problems I see with too many dexters are bad feet and being extremely base narrow. Even many I've seen with a decent front do not seem to have near enough width behind.
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Post by sweetgrass on Feb 27, 2015 9:59:04 GMT -5
Thank you all for the comments. It is very encouraging. I was afraid they I needed to be breeding perfect stock. But, I am happy that our cows and bull are producing healthy calves that grow well. Kansasdexters, your post was extremely helpful with the link - the pictures helped me out a lot! Very well written. I will make it my project to start collecting better photos. Thank you!
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zephyrhillsusan
member
Caught Dexteritis in Dec. 2009. Member of this forum since Oct. 2013.
Posts: 1,502
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Post by zephyrhillsusan on Feb 27, 2015 10:20:10 GMT -5
kansasdexters, I know you've shared that document before, and I'm going to make sure that I saved it in my cattle files on the computer. I noticed it says "Final Draft." Wasn't it ever published on the ADCA website and The Bulletin in its final form? Because if it wasn't, it would be nice to have it in print in The Bulletin to refer to. I looked on the website at the articles, but didn't see a category where it might be. I appreciate the internet with all it offers, but I'm still a page-turning kind of gal. I like to be able to hold my books, magazines and articles in my hands.
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Post by kansasdexters on Feb 27, 2015 13:57:53 GMT -5
When I served on the ADCA Classification committee, we got the document to the Final Draft form, it was approved by the memberbship in attendance at the 2007 AGM in Colorado and there were very few edits left to do to get it into final form. The Holland Dexter Cattle Association was so impressed by it, that they translated it into Dutch and they are currently using it as part of their Classification program. The ADCA, on the other hand, had only a few participants and virtually no support or participation from any of the ADCA Board members, so that was that. Not worth my time to continue pursuing something that ADCA members weren't interested in actually participating in and using. The ADCA used to have those documents on the ADCA website, but they don't anymore. The ADCA also doesn't have a working Classification committee anymore. So I keep the documents available on my own website. I learned alot preparing those documents and it made me a better Dexter breeder, so it was worth the time and effort, if only for that. Live and learn.
Patti
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zephyrhillsusan
member
Caught Dexteritis in Dec. 2009. Member of this forum since Oct. 2013.
Posts: 1,502
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Post by zephyrhillsusan on Feb 27, 2015 14:35:12 GMT -5
Wow, kansasdexters, I need a "dislike" button for that! I hope you don't mind if I hang onto it, too!
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Post by cddexter on Feb 27, 2015 23:34:14 GMT -5
Pretty much my experience, too. I gave evaluation courses at Washington State University's special cattlemen's winterschool two years running, printed off the hand outs and made copies for the ADCA BoD. They all took one, but I didn't qualify to be on the committee. Like Patti, by using an eval system (different from the Brown Swiss the ADCA used) I ended up with a herd of 90+ animals. Doesn't matter what you call it, evaluation or classification, it really helps to improve quality.
cheers, c.
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