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Post by cddexter on Mar 7, 2015 11:35:21 GMT -5
shipping? ahh, are you hauling livestock on this trip? I thought it was a holiday. Drop the trailer at your last stop, and come ahead by car. Best chance you'll get. Anyway, would you really pass up the chance to visit my library?
Know what you mean about body depth. I cringe every time I go to one of those ADCA shows, and see how some folks drive thousands of miles to bring stock that should be in the freezer, and they just don't get it...
I keep promising to put out a book, or set up a website, and I think finally I'll have to get off my pin bones and do something about it. I have this to-die-for evaluation system that anyone can use, without having a 'pro' visit the farm and only classify animals in milk, from a dairy perspective. It separates the qualities into three categories: milk/maternal, muscle/cut type, and general functional traits. Let's you work on specific areas, and even a neophyte can get the score within about 3-5 points of correct--better than nothing. Maybe if we had a system that could be used at home, with no one else the wiser about how dreadful some of those animals really are, it would allow owners to work away in secret and not suffer the anticipated embarrassment of having anyone else in the loop. Sad to say some of the worst offenders form the power base of the assn (no wonder classification isn't supported!).
cheers, c.
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Post by Olga on Mar 7, 2015 18:38:17 GMT -5
That would be a great tool for someone like me, with a very small herd. May be you could even set it up as an online pdf document and charge a nominal fee for access. I remember buying stuff like that from John Lyons website, when I needed help dealing with specific horse training issues.
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Post by legendrockranch on Mar 7, 2015 19:21:35 GMT -5
I keep promising to put out a book, or set up a website, and I think finally I'll have to get off my pin bones and do something about it. cheers, c. Yah Yah Yah, I'll believe it when I see it c The Dexter Cattle Society has their classifications done by Holstein UK Classifiers. I have a link to their linear assessment guide included. I particularly like the illustrated drawings, they start on page 5. www.dextercattle.co.uk/breed-info/linear-assessment/index_50_3221282526.pdfPlease correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't it better to have a cow in milk to get a true classification score? I know they can classify animals that are not in milk but I would rather they be in milk for a better perspective. Since we calve twice a year it would make things somewhat difficult. Barb
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Post by hollydzie on Mar 7, 2015 22:15:05 GMT -5
That is a good link Barb. I see the height difference that we were talking about listed there.
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Post by legendrockranch on Mar 7, 2015 22:54:35 GMT -5
What Holly is talking about, and some might not realize is that the breed standard for the height of Dexters in the UK has changed. I'm not sure when this happened but the linear assessment is dated in 2013 it is listed there along with a link on their site called "breed standard". Here are the current height guidelines for bulls and cows.
Size Bulls: between 42 and 48 inches (106 and 121 cm) at the rump. Cows between 38 and 44 inches (96 and 111 cm) at the rump
Interesting huh!
Barb
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Post by legendrockranch on Mar 7, 2015 23:09:06 GMT -5
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Post by Cascade Meadows Farm - Kirk on Mar 7, 2015 23:48:31 GMT -5
What Holly is talking about, and some might not realize is that the breed standard for the height of Dexters in the UK has changed. I'm not sure when this happened but the linear assessment is dated in 2013 it is listed there along with a link on their site called "breed standard". Here are the current height guidelines for bulls and cows. Size Bulls: between 42 and 48 inches (106 and 121 cm) at the rump. Cows between 38 and 44 inches (96 and 111 cm) at the rump Interesting huh! Barb I noticed that, but also noticed that they don't say "At age three" So let's assume they mean ultimate height So if we take our American preferred height limit of 44" for bulls on their 3rd birthday, and compare that with the UK's ultimate preferred height limit of 48", then perhaps it's not as dramatically different as it appears. 4" of growth after age three until the bull reaches maximum ultimate height might be a bit more than you'd expect, but 2 or 3 inches is easy to imagine It is interesting that they expect all bulls including chondro-bulls to ultimately reach at least 42" minimum
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zephyrhillsusan
member
Caught Dexteritis in Dec. 2009. Member of this forum since Oct. 2013.
Posts: 1,502
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Post by zephyrhillsusan on Mar 8, 2015 7:29:37 GMT -5
This is probably a dumb question, but here's the thing that confuses me about the classification systems. For some of the elements, like a high udder attachment, I can see that the higher score is better. For other elements, it seems like a score in the middle might be better. How does someone starting out know?
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Post by kansasdexters on Mar 8, 2015 7:44:53 GMT -5
Susan,
Classification uses linear assessment. Every trait that is evaluated is shown as a spectrum (each biological trait varies over a range). For certain traits, the desired phenotype is closer to the maximum end of the spectrum, and not the middle of the spectrum, for a dual-purpose breed, such as the Dexter. In the Classification system that we developed, higher point values were assigned to parts of the spectrum that described the preferred type. This is done on a trait by trait basis, assigning point values, then summing them up at the end, so that total final score is obtained.
Patti
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Post by cddexter on Mar 8, 2015 12:34:16 GMT -5
Susan, here's where Patti and I disagree. She spent a lot of work and time trying to make a system work via Brown Swiss, which is mostly based on dairy traits. As she says, some values are good at one end, some in the middle, confusing to neophytes. Don't know if it still works that way, but before Patti got involved, there was weighting of the values, and only the ADCA rep knew what they were, or how (or when) to apply them. When the ADCA first went with Brown Swiss, long before Patti took over, there were 15 'traits' in total, 8 for milk, 7 for everything else. I argued this wasn't what we needed, but didn't prevail. We got stuck with this skewed system. (Julie--not sour grapes; reality) I think Patti uses another system aAa? I use a modified system from AU. Gawd, it's 25 years ago now, but I still have the British modified system in my files, from when I was trying to get the ADCA to work on breeding for quality, and the committee was called Breed Improvement. I also have all the paperwork for the systems that South Africa, Australia, Denmark, and Canada use (or used). Dexters around the world have tried classification, always with dairy systems because that's where the evaluators who travel to herds are found. It's too true that few ever bothered to avail themselves of the opportunity to have their herds classified. Some didn't care, a lot were afraid of the results. And, yes, it's best to score a cow when in milk, but if the timing of the visit doesn't coincide, at least the rest of the cow can be scored, and there are still indicators of udder attachment and teat placement and type. If the cow comes in in the 60's or 70's even discounting the udder, she's hamburger, or gets bred to a really superior bull from an outstanding dam, in the hopes you can yank her calves' score up at least 10 points in one generation. If not, back to hamburger. As you can see from the time line, I've been pretty passionate about breeding for quality for a long time. Two days ago, cleaning up boxes I haven't opened since I moved to this house nine years ago, I found the tapes of Rambler II, Madrigal II, and the whole herd, taken for the ADCA video show in 1998. I'm going to get them converted to a modern format, and then find someone to load them here. Huge risk that I'll look like as ass, of course, but can't think of a better way of putting my photos where my mouth is. cheers, c.
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zephyrhillsusan
member
Caught Dexteritis in Dec. 2009. Member of this forum since Oct. 2013.
Posts: 1,502
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Post by zephyrhillsusan on Mar 8, 2015 16:26:31 GMT -5
Thanks for the answers, y'all! I need to print these off and get them in my handy notebooks. Then if Siobhan's calving/milking schedule cooperates, I'll bring it along to AGM and hope to corner some of you for a discussion and "hands on" lesson. We need a seminar on this at AGM! We need a cow in milk and a bull, and have someone go through and point everything out. I might be an audience of 1, but it would be a rapt audience!
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Post by hollydzie on Mar 8, 2015 17:30:58 GMT -5
Kirk since my friends are here from the UK visiting us I will ask them what age they are talking about in regard to height. I will say this my friends from the UK thought that my non chondro Dexters seemed much smaller than their herd. He said in the show ring they breed for very small but those that breed to market the beef want to increase the size.
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Post by kansasdexters on Mar 8, 2015 18:23:02 GMT -5
C. The ADCA had a 3-year renewable contract with the Brown Swiss Cattle Association to do the Classification of Dexter cattle -- so I really didn't have any say in who would be doing the classification. Just had to come up with a system that would work better than what they had previously been doing (that wasn't working very well). The system that we developed used extensive illustrations, so that a newbie could look at the pictures and understand what was being evaluated and how it was being scored. It worked quite well, and the Brown Swiss Classifiers liked it a lot, because they got more consistent scores, even when different people did the classification evaluation. Susan, if you want to really get some training and appreciation for evaluating different breeds of cattle, then you should plan on attending the Brown Swiss Classifier's annual meeting in 2016. I went for 3 years (2005, 2006, 2007) in a row and got to tour with the Brown Swiss and Guernsey cattle Classifiers and learn from them firsthand -- it was a great experience. The Brown Swiss classifiers evaluate several breeds: Milking Shorthorn, Dutch Belted, Brown Swiss, Dexters, Jersey, and even Randall Line-backs. Here is a link to the Brown Swiss Cattle Association website: www.brownswissusa.com/Programs/Classification/tabid/136/Default.aspxThe PDCA still has a Classification program and you may have the opportunity to visit a Dexter farm during a Classification Tour that includes PDCA Dexter cattle. Patti
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Post by Julie on Mar 8, 2015 19:37:33 GMT -5
There actually is going to be a conformation clinic at the AGM! We are also working on poster presentations for the AGM so if anyone would be interested in creating a poster let me know!
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Post by cddexter on Mar 8, 2015 23:59:32 GMT -5
Hi patti, that's my point. I know you worked long and hard at getting something in place, and I also know that what we had before didn't work well at all. Hat's off to you for your perseverance. c.
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