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Post by rezzfullacres on Dec 2, 2012 18:40:44 GMT -5
Kirk; How far back can you trace chondro or even better yet can you definitively state that the first registered dexters were non-carriers...As most of, if not all the original registered animals were registered by visual inspection, there was no test and there were "bulldogs" when the breed was first started...How do you reconcile these facts with now attempting to eliminate the very gene that, purportedly, distinguished the Dexter cow and allowed her to be registered as A dexter to begin with
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Post by Cascade Meadows Farm - Kirk on Dec 2, 2012 19:24:23 GMT -5
Kirk; How far back can you trace chondro or even better yet can you definitively state that the first registered dexters were non-carriers...As most of, if not all the original registered animals were registered by visual inspection, there was no test and there were "bulldogs" when the breed was first started...How do you reconcile these facts with now attempting to eliminate the very gene that, purportedly, distinguished the Dexter cow and allowed her to be registered as A dexter to begin with On my small farm, I raise animals that are small and compact and easy to raise and trouble free. I've got a herd of pigs that are small and friendly and trouble free. I have a flock of sheep that are relatively small, and friendly and trouble free. If this was the year 1900 and if I had Kerry cattle at perhaps 50 inches tall and had no genetic knowledge, I'd be thrilled when I had small calf out of a neighbor's dwarf bull. But then when I tried to create an entire herd of them, I would be sadly disappointed by the bulldog freak calves and the fact that they wouldn't breed true. But, I might still like the shorties even though I'd still get lots of 50" cattle. In the meantime, over then next century, other smart farmers continued to breed for true-short animals. These are the folks that turned the Kerry heterozygous dwarfs, into real true-breeding Dexters. The Kerry/Dexters were NEVER a real breed. They were just Kerry's (and other large breeds) with dwarfism. The dwarfs were just dwarf Kerry's that were called "Dexters" The Dexter breed only became a real breed when farmers started to create true-breeding versions of short, dual purpose, cattle, distinct from the taller Kerry's. Real breeds, breed true. Here's a real true-breeding real Dexter at 39" (Microcosm), he's just a little too short for me, but I still like him. Many of the old timers wanted true-breeding true-short REAL dexters, but it takes decades to develop them. Well, we've got them now, so we don't need to use the lethal dwarfism gene any longer to create "fake" short cattle out of big cattle. The fact that there are only 300 dwarfs registered in the ADCA, seems to prove my point.
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Post by rezzfullacres on Dec 2, 2012 19:35:08 GMT -5
The Kerry/Dexters were NEVER a real breed. They were just Kerry's (and other large breeds) with dwarfism. The dwarfs were just dwarf Kerry's that were called Dexters www.dextercattle.org/adca/images/ai/Lane%27s_End_Microcosm.jpg [/img] Kirk; You have made my point......Chondro was there when this breed was started, why do you now want to change it? Please do not take me wrong, I am for testing AND reporting IF it is applied across the board. I have no problem with polled animals, I have no problem with chondro animals. AS LONG AS BOTH PARENTS ARE REGISTERED DEXTERS THE OFFSPRING SHOULD BE TOO. I will not allow my personal preference attempt to influence what I think is best for the overall breed, I think you are allowing your personal preferences cloud your judgement. JMHO...
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Post by lakeportfarms on Dec 2, 2012 20:09:00 GMT -5
Rezz makes a good point.
Kirk, your website states "The Cascade Herd is polled (naturally hornless), primarily red (some black).
Based on your site, it seems to imply that all of your cattle are "naturally" polled. But unless you have a completely homozygous polled herd, the polled cows and or bulls you sell may in fact have horned calves. Isn't that a little deceptive to buyers who may be thinking that they are purchasing cows or bulls from you that will breed true?
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Post by Cascade Meadows Farm - Kirk on Dec 2, 2012 21:30:43 GMT -5
Rezz makes a good point. Kirk, your website states "The Cascade Herd is polled (naturally hornless), primarily red (some black). Based on your site, it seems to imply that all of your cattle are "naturally" polled. But unless you have a completely homozygous polled herd, the polled cows and or bulls you sell may in fact have horned calves. Isn't that a little deceptive to buyers who may be thinking that they are purchasing cows or bulls from you that will breed true? Many of us polled breeders are working on creating 100% homozygous polled dexters and we have bunches of them now. The DNA labs are getting close to having a test to identify homozygous polled (but you can also do progeny-testing to identify them) Here's what homozygous polled animals look like (a very fine homozygous polled AI bull named Mr. Right that's very closely related to every animal on our farm) Here's what our polled "rejects" look like (a very fine naturally horned bull - I love this bull and he's in many of our pedigrees) Now since we're talking about homozygosity of traits, here's what a homozygous chondro dexter looks like (on the left) and the other chondro "rejects" can be 50" tall
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Post by bruff64 on Dec 2, 2012 23:13:00 GMT -5
I have recently seen Mister Right and he is an outstanding bull, no doubt. The beef side of Dexters will gain in popularity, this is just the reality of the current trend. Really it is not a trend but an economic reality. The return on a polled dexter, one that is decended from these lines, will yield the best value to the owner. But on the other hand, you cannot disconnect that a polled animal is not a genetic defect carrier........in the wild state, like Chondro, the trait would self eliminate as the carrier would not survive and procreate. I do not raise either, but I would like to know that if I prefer, in the future to do so, that either are available in the registry as an option.
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Post by marion on Dec 2, 2012 23:44:15 GMT -5
Gene, I won't comment on the rest of your post but just the last line in response to Kirk: Quote "Here is a picture of a Dexter bulldog calf, born to a supposedly proportional short Dexter cow. What you called a homozygous short Dexter."
Gene, you KNOW that Kirk was talking about small true breeding (but non-chondro carrying) cattle. Please do not twist someone's words. Obviously, your "supposedly proportional short Dexter cow" was a chondro carrier.
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Post by Cascade Meadows Farm - Kirk on Dec 3, 2012 0:54:53 GMT -5
Please tell me about the calf pictured in your A example. Is that a Dexter calf? Please provide the name and registration number of the DNA tested chondro carrier Dexter that is 50" tall. The one you used in the picture appears to be just a little over 3 feet tall. He only comes up to the man's waist and falls far short of the height of the gate, which is commonly 48" tall. Is that a DNA tested chondro carrier? What is his name and registration number? If I look him up will I find his chondro status listed? The picture of the deformed bulldog calf above, is on the FRONT PAGE of the Julie Cavanagh study on Chondrodysplasia in Dexters. She is the foremost authority. The picture has two photos A. = Homozygous Chondro, B = Heterozygous Chondro, but in breeding for chondro dwarfs, you also get a good number of non-chondro "rejects" that are homozygous normal. If the chondro gene is used on lines with 50" normal bulls, then a short-appearing chondro-affected cow can throw 50" non-chondro sons (that are "rejects" as far as chondro-breeding is concerned). According to the Julie Cavanagh, chondro typically subtracts 8 inches from a bull's normal height. link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s00335-007-9066-9/fulltext.html Chondro could be eliminated from any herd in a single generation, never to resurface. We have to guard against it vanishing from the earth due to misguided judgement. . Chondrodysplasia is a terrible disease that is caused by a defective, broken ACAN gene. Two broken copies and the disease is lethal. One broken copy and the calf's growth is stunted and can lead to many problems including difficulty in walking and severe arthritis. It would be a wonderful thing if we could eliminate this genetic disease. But even if we completely eliminated it, it would appear again and again. It almost certainly arises in other cattle, but is quickly culled and swept under the table. The dna copy process is NOT 100% error free. The typical error rate is 1 error in 10,000 copies. Even if we "eliminated" chondrodysplasia, 1 in 10,000 sperm in every bull likely has a newly broken/misspelled ACAN gene. Chondrodysplasia would arise again when one of those sperm was the first to meet an egg (the chance is 1 in 10,000 on average). Further, the broken ACAN gene has spread to many cattle outside of dexters, so even if we eliminated it in purebred dexters, it's everywhere now. I'm not hell-bent on eliminating it (and I only have one vote anyway), but it would be great if folks moved away from it and moved toward true-short dexters with the shortness they admire, but without the genetic problems. It would be a VERY good thing for the Dexter breed if we could claim someday that we are mostly genetic disease free (but that would take years). In the meantime lots of dexter herds can already make the claim of being free of known genetic diseases (if they are tested free of Chondro and PHA).
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Post by lakeportfarms on Dec 3, 2012 6:47:39 GMT -5
Kirk, I only bring up your website and claims for "natural polled" because of your past statements regarding the definition of a genetic defect as, (to paraphrase because I don't have the inclination to go through all your posts)one that "causes pain to the animal".
Isn't it fair to assume that since you advertise your animals as polled that your customers prefer the polled to horned genetics? I think it is. So what happens when that customer (or you) gets a horned offspring from that heterozygous "polled" animal? You talk about upcoming testing that will be available for homozygous polled traits, but it's not available yet. Do you or they shrug your shoulders and leave the horns on it? I didn't think so. Does that not cause "pain to the animal"?
You can say no if you are willing to take a glowing red hot iron and stick it on your head for 20 seconds in two different spots. I bet you could sell tickets to watch that.
It seems to me that breeders such as Gene and others who raise and keep horned animals, who use the available genetic testing to select carrier/non-carrier breedings to avoid bulldog calves, are among the most humane and responsible Dexter owners out there. Remember, I can know the status of either PHA or chondrodysplasia LONG before that animal is ever ready for breeding. I don't need 5 calves on the ground before I can hazard a guess toward it's carrier/non-carrier status.
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Post by Cascade Meadows Farm - Kirk on Dec 3, 2012 13:13:24 GMT -5
Kirk, I only bring up your website and claims for "natural polled" because of your past statements regarding the definition of a genetic defect as, (to paraphrase because I don't have the inclination to go through all your posts)one that "causes pain to the animal". Isn't it fair to assume that since you advertise your animals as polled that your customers prefer the polled to horned genetics? I think it is. So what happens when that customer (or you) gets a horned offspring from that heterozygous "polled" animal? You talk about upcoming testing that will be available for homozygous polled traits, but it's not available yet. Do you or they shrug your shoulders and leave the horns on it? I didn't think so. Does that not cause "pain to the animal"? . I actually talked about this in a horned discussion thread just a couple of days ago. We will NOT de-horn on our farm (we used to do it on goats many years ago, but it was AWFUL and cruel and I hated it, so we stopped doing it). De-horning is being outlawed in some countries. We have mostly used homozygous polled bulls, so we had 100% polled calves for years and years and years. Polled can breed 100% true if you want. But, we currently have an amazing super friendly, rather short, super thick, heterozygous polled bull that we are using and are getting a few horned calves (about one out of 6 calves is horned). Over the years, we have had occasional calls from folks looking for horned cattle. We have always sent them to horned breeders. So we have a few customers who want horns. We have one amazing horned 18 month old girl that has potential buyers, but I'm still hanging onto her because she is short and thick and horned (and out of our best milking line). We sold two horned bull calves to someone who may try to use them as pulling oxen, rather than eating them. So I agree that if you are going to de-horn, then the horned gene is rather like a serious defect that causes pain to an animal. If you de-horn, you should consider moving to a homozygous polled bull to avoid that pain. There are existing methods to test a bull for homozygous polled (but they aren't simple tests). Several homozygous polled bulls are listed in the AI Directory. PS. I appreciate the discussion (and love seeing the photos posted from your farm). If we were in a room discussing this, it would be a friendly and warm conversation.
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Post by marion on Dec 3, 2012 13:28:50 GMT -5
Gene, when you untangle your knickers, you might want to re-check your pedigrees
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Post by Cascade Meadows Farm - Kirk on Dec 3, 2012 13:51:46 GMT -5
Until I see an example of the 50" chondro Dexter, I'll continue to believe it doesn't exist. That's true as I clearly stated earlier. Of course there are no 50" condro-affected dexter bulls because the chondro-dwarfing gene subtracts 8" off of a bull according to Julie Cavanagh (premier dexter chondro expert) A chondro bull that's listed as 41- 42" tall, can easily throw 48 - 50" tall bull offspring. If you breed a 42" chondro-dwarf cow with a 42" chondro-dwarf bull you'll likely get: 25% horribly disfigured dead calves 50% Chondro-dwarfs around 42" (some with early arthritis) 25% Normal calves in the 47" to 50" range
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Post by rezzfullacres on Dec 3, 2012 15:23:12 GMT -5
Not if I have anything to do with it. There's no person spouting this nonsense that I would allow to tell me that they have decided that their "improved Dexters" are superior to my chosen traditional Dexters.
This this is directed at me I will answer in kind even though I know better////
Gene; I would be proud to call my dexter cattle improved. not only is it my goal, but it should be every cattlemans goal, to leave the breed you deal with in better condition than when you got there. Do you not breed to improve udders, improve feet, improve weight gain, improve meat yield......I could go on but maybe just maybe you can remove your blinders and actually see the intent of what was written not your interpetation...If you feel your Dexters are in better shape and more complete than the Dexters of 100 years ago than you "improved" them, is that really something to be ashamed of.....Thank goodness not everyone thinks that way....
I will state my opinion 1 more time and I am done......Chondro has been around as long as the Dexter breed, it needs to stay.....PHA can be easily removed if a significant amount of time is allowed.....Mandatory testing is a noble goal and Patti's idea of a financial incentive from the ADCA is great...
Hope this clears up my position.....
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Post by legendrockranch on Dec 3, 2012 19:16:43 GMT -5
Genebo,
I have not seen one post from Kirk where he personally attacked you like you are attacking him. This is just because of a difference of opinion.
You have even attached me for no reason other than posting an opposing article.
I think it's time you take a hard look at yourself. It is truly a shame that you're going off like this.
Barb
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Post by Tanya on Dec 3, 2012 23:44:17 GMT -5
I absolutely agree with Barb. I hardly ever post, but just about every time I do, Genebo attacks me because I do not agree with him. This thread has become TOXIC.
I believe Kirk is a brave man to take on such a controversial subject. Thank You Kirk! I for one appreciate you, your knowledge and your efforts. Common sense, is not so common, clearly!
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