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Post by cddexter on Feb 12, 2013 10:22:43 GMT -5
And, Rhonda:
There used to be a very popular breed in England called Suffolk (or Norfolk) Duns, which were supposed to have been developed from dun cattle introduced with the Vikings. It was a small, dual purpose breed, and polled. With the development of named varieties, and bigger is better mentality, the Duns were deliberately merged with both the Lincloln Red and the Red Poll breeds. All three were concentrated on the eastern edge of England. By 1906 the Duns had disappeared.
Point one: since anything small was accepted into the Dexter registry, or was used as a cross to be bred up in the registry, and Duns were already small, there is no proof but high probability that they were part of the original gene pool. There isn't actually any proof of the origins of any of the founding animals, including many of those that came from Ireland.
Point two: Both little e and E+ override dun. The LR and RP were also in the early stages of development, and would have had their own programs. It is reasonable to assume that since it is recorded that the Duns were deliberately merged with these two breeds, there would still be some hidden dun genes floating around somewhere.
Testing either breed for dun would be, by definition, a hit or miss affair. You'd have to just keep testing until either you found the gene (oh, gosh, what a surprise), or you exhausted all the animals in the breed and it didn't show up.
Point three: England has its own Judy Sponaugle, named Andrew Sheppy. Ireland has a relative newbie who belongs to the same crowd. They are all obsessive purists, purity being defined according to their own standards, not the generally accepted ones.
This 'select' groups' current witch hunt is 'proving' dun was introduced from some sort of misregistered cross and shouldn't be included in the accepted Dexter gene pool. They've zeroed in on Grinstead Plover, because he was the herd bull for Woodmagic where dun supposedly started. This is a handy bull to pick, because his breeder also kept Red Poll and Jersey cattle, and it is obvious to this group that the breeder, either intentionally or not, created a mongrel that has gone on to sully the international gene pool. There was another bull that sired a dun calf, separate bloodlines to Plover. That had these purists looking further back.
You have to have a pretty heavy duty sense of humour, because up until 1998, Andrew had been spouting off that Dexter dun was actually 'channel islands' influence (i.e. Jersey) with a long boney finger being pointed at Grinstead because of Plover and the owner having Jerseys. He actually presented this 'theory' as fact at the Congress, proved to his own satisfaction using himself as a reference.
Once I published my colour DNA study (1997-99), and proved that Jersey's were homo E+, and in Dexters E+ was red, not dun, I guess he had to look elsewhere for his victim.
I pointed out there were apparently duns in the US dating from 1905, but somehow this has been disproven. I guess you can do anything, depending on how you want to look at things. And, I guess this goes both ways.
I'm not sure what they hope to prove with all this. Discredit a long dead major influence in the breed? I guess that will make them superior, won't it.
With all this going on, do remember one basic truth: English Dexters have ALWAYS had either foundation animals or upgrades, right from 1879 when the first registry started, through to today. Continuously. Even if, IF, there was a mistake, accidental or not, lo those many years ago, the descendants are now more 'pure' than half the rest of the Dexter population.
cheers, c.
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Post by dexterfarm on Feb 12, 2013 13:09:49 GMT -5
In Beryls book she talks about coming to America and being showed to registered reds that were not red but dun. She does not state who they were or where she saw them. Do we know who these cows were it would be interesting to look at there pedigrees?
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Post by rhonda on Feb 12, 2013 15:15:35 GMT -5
OK, thanks ladies. I realize color isn't a major factor in the grand scheme of things...it just seems there is always something from the past to try to prove one kind or another aren't Dexters. I think it's all these things that make Dexters what they are. I love the breed--I love my cattle.
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Post by kansasdexters on Feb 12, 2013 15:47:40 GMT -5
The connection between the Norsemen (Vikings) and the British Isles centuries ago, provided considerable influence on the cattle to be found there. If you have any doubt that there are some genes contributed by the Viking cows/bulls to what eventually became the Dexter breed centuries later, take a look at some of the native "endangered" Norwegian Cattle Breeds: www.skogoglandskap.no/filearchive/brosjyre_1_11_native_endangered_farm_animals_cows.pdfPatti
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jamshundred
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Post by jamshundred on Feb 12, 2013 16:12:14 GMT -5
Rhonda,
I love genealogy, jigsaw puzzles, good detective novels and Dexter cattle! Dexters have provided me with endless hours of entertaining research as I've combed through records seeking answers to questions of my own or those I've seen others ask. I find the Dexter breed to be unique and marvelous in so many ways from other cattle breeds.
Back in 1987 Dan Randall composed all the herd book entries up until that time, and as I understand it, anything not black was entered as red. When Mrs. Rutherford came to the US for a visit along about that time or shortly thereafter, she was reported to have seen dun cattle that were registered as red that she identified as dun, based on her knowledge of dun within her herd. ALL the entries at that time were then changed to red/dun. As an aside to this, remember dun cattle from Mrs. Rutherford's herd were imported to Canada in 1978 and became the foundation of the Cranworth herd. Jim Johnson a very active member of ADCA leadership, author of the Bulletin at times over the years and prominent breeder traded Dexters with the Cranworth herd and brought Woodmagic dun to the US . . . where much like the other "latest new things" spread rapidly through the US herd. I have not been able to document any dun cattle in the US herd that did not have pedigree connections back to the ancestors of the Woodmagic dun animals.
These dun cattle were within about a decade or so of the time that the Woodmagic duns were born in England which were eventually permitted into the herd books in the UK.
So. . . bear in mind. . . . there were NO sanctioned registrations of dun animals in the dun breed until around the end of the 1960's. If one is naturally curious, one might ask themselves why not? If these dun animals were known to exist and were born into Dexter herds for decades why were they never acknowledged for so many years? As I researched behind the Woodmagic animals through herdbooks it seemed obvious to me one carrier of dun was Grinstead Plover but I believe there is circumstantial evidence of others behind Plover when you see Dexters with names like Grinstead Peachblossom and Banwell Sandy.
Lady Loder ( Grinstead) , was likely the most powerful and influential breeder of Dexter cattle in the decades of the 1930's and 40's. One wonders . . . if there were duns in any numbers in her herd why they were not accepted and acknowledged much as the dun of Woodmagic eventually entered the herd books. Were they registered as red? Or were they culled and not until the intensive line breeding with Woodmagic did it become prominent in the bloodlines and Mrs. Rutherford's popularity and position afforded her the influence to have them accepted into the registry? I find no good reason not to be interested in these factors or to search for information and answers regarding that which is not known.
There are so may fascinating entries that raise questions in the early UK herdbooks even for someone without boundless curiosity. It has nothing to do with nefarious or destructive intent as Carol D would have you believe. It is merely a search for information and knowledge. Likely the biggest mystery I've never solved is to understand those who do not seek reality or seek to hide reality. . . for eventually the truth will always make itself known.
It is amusing to me that any time I appear on a chat board and my opinions threaten the status quo I know I will have to return in short order to negate the forthcoming attack. I will not permit anyone to define me in this manner. My character and actions define me not destructive political or personal commentary from adversaries of whom I have little regard.
For those who do not know Andrew Sheppy, he is the head of Cobthorn Trust in the UK, which provides funding for a number of projects related to livestock and rare breeds, he's been breeding Dexter cattle into five decades now and he is an esteemed Dexter breeder in the UK, with years of research and a library of Dexter information, research, and published works that would rival any University library. He is the current President of the Dexter Cattle Society, ( an esteemed position itself in the UK), serves on government panels and positions in the UK in the interests of livestock preservation, was a founding member of the UK breeds conservation effort decades ago, initiated the Cardiff Research project and worked very hard to see it through, and is known world wide by Dexter breeders for these very positive Dexter efforts. I do not know him to advocate destruction in the breed. His very first cattle came up through the appendix registries. . . he has lived all facets of a Dexter breeder's experience. That researchers evolve in their research as clues are uncovered is part of the process. I suppose it is also part of the process that jealous adversaries attempt to use the evolution of knowledge in destructive ways.
I believe there are folks in Ireland who are interested in Dexter cattle and in restoring the foundations of the Dexter breed to the homeland with foundation bloodlines. Some of them are in the Irish government I have no idea who that poison dart was thrown at. Why the interests of those in Ireland should threaten anyone here is another mystery.
For those who would lend any credence to a suggestion that there is anyone in the world trying to take dun Dexters out of the breed. . . . I've not met them. I have no knowledge of it. I have dun cattle in my herd. I have the cutest and tiniest little horned dun bull ( of course a carrier) from one of my favorite cows that I am considering for a herd bull. There are Legacy cows and bulls that are dun in color. My wonderful and most used Legacy herd bull is a dun bull. That there are folks who research to find information or origins for whatever trait in the breed raises their interest I find of interest myself. What IS .. . . IS. . . . and that is as it should be.
Finally, a personal comment to Carol D. Please do not use my commentary here or me personally as a pawn in your ongoing rivalry and jealousy of Andrew Sheppy. I have never known him to make negative destructive remarks of you in any public medium much less an international one like this forum.
Judy
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Post by kansasdexters on Feb 12, 2013 18:15:33 GMT -5
In Volume VI 1981 & 1982 Dexter Herd Book, published by the ADCA, the description of the Dexter in regards to color (p. 6), read as follows: 2. Color - Whole black or red, the two colors being of equal merit. Bulls - A little white on organs of generation is permissible. Cows - A small amount of white on udder and underline is permissible (not to extend beyond navel), and also on the tassel of the tail. The Description and Standards for the Dexter Bull, as amended and adopted at the 1982 ADCA Annual Meeting, are given on p. 7 of this herd book, and with regard to color, read as follows: 2. Color - Whole black, red, or dun, the three colors being of equal merit. A little white on organs of generation is permissible. In Volume VII 1983 and Volume VIII 1984 Dexter Herd Book, published by the ADCA, the description and standards for the Dexter Bull (p. 6) and the Description and Standards for the Dexter Cow (p. 7) both state: "Color - Whole Black, Red, or Dun, the three colors being of equal merit." Dan Randall's 1987 book, "The Breeding History of Kerrys and Irish Dexter Cattle in North America" designates all non-black animals with "D" for dun. He did not differentiate between red and dun, so if an animal's color was not designated as black "B" then it's designated as dun "D". In Volume 1 Herd Book, published in 1921, #215 Belle of Hempstead House, DOB 3/25/1917, was registered with the following description: Body brown, switch black, udder some white. Sire: #23 Castlegould Carson Dam: #73 Castlegould Bluebell (described as being brownish-black in her registration) Descendents of these early animals can be followed through several generations to the Red/Dun, Ginger of Tak-Sca-Du-Hav, ADCA #1078, Sire: #718 Peerless Perfection, Dam: #727 Peerless Miss Jet. #1063 Major of Tak-Sca-Du-Hav produced the Red/Dun, Muncred of Tak-Sca-Du Hav and there are other examples of black animals having non-black offspring in the Peerless Herd and in other herds. So we see Red/Dun (non-black) animals appearing sporadically in the American pedigrees for decades prior to the 1960's and 1970's. They were registered as "Red", if they were registered with the ADCA, because the Americans did not formally distinguish between Red and Dun until 1982. Then there was a lot of confusion among the Dexter breeders because they used the terms "Red" and "Dun" interchangeably, or just referred to non-black animals as "Red/Dun" or "Red or Dun". This later resulted (decades later) in the requirement for genetic color testing to verify "Red" prior to registration as "Red" in animals. Unfortunately, people that don't test for color, are still registering their Red Dexters as "Dun", since there is no requirement for a genetic color test prior to registration as a Dun. Ruth Sunlines, ADCA No. 2332, has no Woodmagic ancestry, and she was registered as "Red", but when she was bred with a Dun Dexter bull, Ruth Sunlines produced Emily of Green Valley, ADCA No. 5116, a Dun cow: www.dextercattle.org/pedigreedb/ponyweb.cgi?horse=5116&ParentID=2332&Page=1&Sort=6Rio Grande Bonita, ADCA No. 3541 is another dun cow that has no Woodmagic ancestry. Thomas' Reu' Grande', ADCA No. 3847, was black and carried both red and dun. He has no Woodmagic ancestry. Patti
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jamshundred
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Post by jamshundred on Feb 12, 2013 21:01:40 GMT -5
Patti, I have been down every early line, every offspring of Belle of Hempstead house. You can not identify or trace dun in the American herd until after the importations of 1950 which go back to Grinstead animals.
<<#215 Belle of Hempstead House DOB 1917 was registered with "brown body".<< There is no Dexter breeder living who has bred for any number of years that has not seen black animals with brown sheens and even brown hair due to recessive red or nutritional deficiencies. I once had a calf off the Fireweed lines that looked like a brown calf. with splotches of black. He did eventually shed out to black, but I have seen cows that have an extensive look of brown, ( not dun) that are black carrying red.
In a court of law men have been sent to their death on sketchy circumstantial evidence, so let's build the circumstantial case here for the lack of dun in early imports or until the half century mark.
Belle was basically second generation from imports. Her grandsire was a Gort Bull. The Gort herd had red cattle. Her great-grandparents were Kenmare. They also had red Dexters. Ireland did NOT register anything Brown. The preponderance of the evidence says this cow may have been carrying red, but even if she was carrying red, I find no evidence it carried forward and there are no descendents other than black.
Belle had three offspring, Belinda, Bessie, and Echo a bull and they had three offspring - all owned by the same breeder. Belinda and Bessie were bred to a North Oaks bull with a red ancestor two or three generations back. I have been told that Duv Mary 2nd was a red cow and if it carried the genetics were recessive. No offspring for multiple generatons of anything but black. Each of these two cows had one black offspring each.
The bull, Echo had one offspring, Warrior of Hempstead House a black bull. Warrior had 19 offspring all black. The color in the few animals in the ancestors on these pedigrees are from herds with known red cattle in the herd books, and since only Red was permitted in the registry one should assume that info to be correct.
Of the 19 offspring of Warrior, all are black and born 1932-1937 into the Peerless herd. They were not prolific breeders as there were only 31 offspring amongst them.
I have traced the three offspring of Belle and their descendents and two of them barely leave a trace on the breed. I have traced the descendents as you did. There are a couple of animals coming off the Peerless herd which had to carry Red. Mite was one of them.
Rather than list every generation - I will fast forward to the first animal of color you found.. Ginger of Tak-Ska-Du-Hav. Ginger was probably a red cow. In her ancestry are two red lines. . . Gort and Duv and her ancestor Duv Mary was a red cow. There is no indication anywhere in this pedigree that there was dun lurking, but there is ancestry of red. NOTE: The most significant fact about Ginger is that she did not pass red or dun into the US herd. None of her offspring had offspring. END OF THAT LINE OF COLOR.
The next animal you mention is Major of Dak-Sca-Du-Hav. Major had the same sire as Ginger - so there was red ancestry for him on the Sire side of the pedigree. His dam was Peerless Mousie. . and that side of the pedigree was very similar to Ginger lines with red ancestry from Ireland.
These animals above are into the 1950's and the first imports which included the Grinstead genetics that were imported in 1955. I did not check either pedigree - currently there are missing animals in the pedigree program and I have done extensive research down those lines previously.
So what did I say in my previous post? My research has shown there were no dun cows in America prior to the imports of the 1950's.
Dan Randall originally compiled all the animals as RED.. according to the original herd book entries. They were changed to DUN only after the Rutherford visit and then ADCA changed everything to RED/DUN in the online pedigree records and registrations thereafter.
I do not have time right now for Ruth Sunlines but she was born after TWO sets of imports and she had ancestors that came in 1960 and they have Grinstead ancestors. With lots of evidence of dun on these lines and none for the US lines. .. . . . . . .
It does NOT matter if Rio Grande Bonita had Woodmagic in the pedigree or not. . . . . earlier imports in the 1950's and 1960's were carrying Grinstead genetics and we know Grinstead was carrying DUN.
Just as I stated previously there is NO proof of any dun in the US until after the 1950 imports but record of red coming out of Ireland in the original imports.
Judy
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Post by kansasdexters on Feb 12, 2013 22:24:12 GMT -5
Judy,
You can't assume that the red animals didn't carry dun. They would not express it, but they sure could carry for many generations. The black animals would not express it unless they were homozygous for it. A good example of this was Thomas' Reu' Grande'. He was black and he carried both red and dun (genetically tested and confirmed). His sire, Thomas' Sir Reunite #3413, and his dam Thomas' Magic First Lady #2292 only have black or red offspring, but at least one of them had to carry dun in order for Thomas' Reu' Grande' to end up with it. There is no Woodmagic ancestry in this pedigree line, but he does go back repeatedly to Belle of Hempstead House.
Patti
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jamshundred
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Post by jamshundred on Feb 12, 2013 23:52:11 GMT -5
Patti,
One of the first color traditions I ever heard was that dun will overpower red . ( I.E. if you want red don't breed dun in those lines). It seems to me, based on all info available that the bigger leap is to think dun carried silent for so many generations versus red when it seems to be the strongest of the two and there was so much line breeding because of the small gene pool in the early days of the US herd.
As to Thomas Magic First Lady # 2292 and thus any offspring.
Her sire was Mar Nell's Black Magic. ( I refrain from comment regarding my research here because of conflicting info I have). Her sire is Parndon Bullfinch . We know he does not carry red - - but it occurs to me I don't kow if he has ever been tested for dun. However she IS a product of the 1950/1960 imports. Just a few generations back you will see Grinstead Dora 16th off the Framfield line that was imported. That is the SIRE side.
Now for the dam, Brady's Run Raydell. See Grinstead Ambassador a few generations back.
Everywhere dun can be found there is Grinstead behind it.
Don't you wonder the actual color of Sparr Penny? Or are English Penny's black? LOL!
Judy
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Post by cddexter on Feb 13, 2013 1:17:20 GMT -5
I don't have time right now to go over everything, but without finishing reading everything from today, one thing lept out at me.
"I believe there is circumstantial evidence of others behind Plover when you see Dexters with names like Grinstead Peachblossom and Banwell Sandy."
Sorry, Jood, ya hafta rethink this one. Peachblossom was borrowed from Murrell Peachblossom, a drop dead gorgeous black cow bought by Lady Loder and influential in her herd. She even used the same designation to name a bull Peach Tree. Absolutely nothing tto do with color, kiddo. Sandy wasn't dun, either.
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Post by kansasdexters on Feb 13, 2013 9:23:39 GMT -5
Judy,
For goodness sake, everywhere Dexters can be found, there is a Grinstead behind it!
The Grinstead herd was one of the most influential herds of all times. Established in 1908, by the purchase of a dozen bred heifers from the Duchess of Devonshire, commenced showing in 1921 and winning 82 Championships, 49 Reserve Championships, and 326 First Prizes. The dispersal sale for the Grinstead herd was reported in the Dexter Cattle Society Bulletin in December 1959.
When you make the statement that "Everywhere dun can be found there is a Grinstead behind it", you essentially agree that dun has been with the Dexter breed since its beginning as a registered, recognized breed.
Patti
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jamshundred
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Post by jamshundred on Feb 13, 2013 12:57:08 GMT -5
Patti,
No. . . Patti you need to rephase that statement. Maybe "today" there is a Grinstead behind every living Dexter but in the early 1900's there were not . . . and. . . . . . that statement is changing the parameters of the discussion "we" were having on DUN in AMERICA. I said that the dun in America can all be traced back to animals from Grinstead that were imported AFTER the mid-1900's. That is not true of Red animals previous to the 1950's. Grinstead ancestor animals did NOT come to America until mid-1950's. The animals that were first imported to America in the early 1900's came in from Ireland. No Grinstead in the Irish herds.
As to Grinstead. . I am pretty sure I said what you said. The Grinstead herd of Lady Loder was absolutely the premier Dexter herd in England as far as numbers go, but there were a couple of other herds during that period which seem to also have been known to be quality lines. Grinstead was most prolific during the 30's, 40's and into the 50's. One thing I noticed but have never used as a focus is the color of the registered animals. Black.
I am going to go get my UK herd books and see how much color they registered after the war years. BRB
Judy
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Post by kansasdexters on Feb 13, 2013 13:42:07 GMT -5
Judy, Some of the original imports into the United States (into the Castlegould herd, which later became the Hempstead House herd) came from England, not Ireland: Kingswood Country Girl, #1151 English Kerry and Dexter Cattle Society Herd Book DOB: 6/16/1904, Sire: Rotherfield Resolute #249; Dam: Rotherfield Russet #932 Breeder: J.S. Snelgrove, Tunbridge Wells, England Kingswood Courtly Girl, #1237 English Kerry and Dexter Cattle Society Herd Book DOB: 4/3/1905, Sire: Compton Dignity #250; Dam: Malvern Signorina #336 Breeder: J.S. Snelgrove, Tunbridge Wells, England La Mancha Little Mary, #1325 English Kerry and Dexter Cattle Society Herd Book DOB: 1/8/1905, Sire: Compton Don Juan #251; Dam: Compton Diploma#1159 Breeder: T.J. Whitaker, Hants, England The Compton herd (Compton Place, Eastbourne, the property of the Duchess of Devonshire) would have been the same herd that Lady Loder (Grinstead herd) obtained her foundation animals from in 1908. Howard Gould's Castlegould herd in the United States, had a number of direct descendents from the Duchess of Devonshire's Compton herd, here are some more: ADCA No. 68 - Castlegould Darling, DOB: 5/23/1908 Sire: Compton Dijon, #238 English Kerry and Dexter Cattle Society Herd Book Dam: Compton Deborah, #1300 English Kerry and Dexter Cattle Society Herd Book ADCA No. 69 - Castlegould Claribel, DOB: 8/4/1908 Sire: Compton De Dijon, #288 English Kerry and Dexter Cattle Society Herd Book Dam: Slane Clara 3rd When Castlegould Claribel was bred to Tom Thumb, #542 Royal Dublin Society Kerry and Dexter Cattle Herd Book, she produced ADCA No. 73 - Castlegould Bluebell, DOB: 1/16/1912. ADCA No. 73 - Castlegould Bluebell was the dam of record for ADCA No. 215 Belle of Hempstead House, the Dexter cow that is described as being "Body brown" So there are several direct lines of descent from the Compton herd (in England) to the Castlegould herd (in New York). The Castlegould herd was renamed as the Hempstead House herd, after the estate was purchased by Daniel Guggenheim in 1917. www.dupontcastle.com/castles/gould.htmI don't have access to the early English herd books, so I can't look up Rotherfield Russet #932. Anyone have the herd book information on Rotherfield Russet or any information on J.S. Snelgrove's Kingswood herd? Patti
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jamshundred
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Post by jamshundred on Feb 13, 2013 13:55:00 GMT -5
UK Registrations in 1944.
Bulls - - - 16 15 Black 1 Red ( Elysian Red King) Elysian Red King's sire was Nutham Peter 1332, and the Dam was Castle Morton Emerald 2nd 5301 . . . .and interestingly enough the granddam was Grinstead Tiercel1272. Did she carry the red to her dau or did it come from the grandsire?
Cows. 95 12 RED ( That is an interesting percentage!) I noticed just going down the lines that Grinstead Tiercel 1272 was a granddam for one of the cows, and for three others Grinstead Nero 1152 was the grandsire. Another red calf had Grinstead Domino1201 as the great-great . Two more cows, Research Reine 5603 and Research Ronnie 5604 had Grinstead Wizard 1246 as a great- great
In 1944 there were 16 Grinstead cows registered. ALL Black ____________________________________________________ 1945 UK Herdbook 26 Bulls 84 cows Registered as Red 1 Bull 7 cows
The red bull did not have Grinstead through the gr-gr lines.
Amberley Nosegay was registered as Red. Her sire was Grinstead Baronet1367 ( whose sire was Grinstead Peach Tree1305) and dam Grinstead Buttercup2nd 5307
Eylsian Hooch's Dora registered as red. Her paternal granddam was Grinstead Hawk27th 5035 and her dam was Grinstead Dora 2nd 4834 by Grinstead Plutocrat 1155
Sparr Coffee Convolvulus had granddam Grinstead Convolvulus 6th 4590 and gr-grdam Grinstead Concolculus4th 4305
Grinstead registered only 7 cows in 1945 all of them black _______________________________________________________ 1946 ( There are some missing colors in the registrations and a couple of discrepancies in the Grinstead animals). Bulls 24 3 Red Cows 96 Red 8 The missing color needs to be cross-referenced with the individual herd listings to check color - but I am out of time for now. Will go with what IS listed.
Garnet of Whatcroft 5723 Grandsires Grinstead Wave 1203 and Grinstead Careless1135
GRINSTEAD POPPY 5740 The sire is Ashton Hayes Nero 1347 The dam is Sparr Poppet5609 The granddam is Grinstead Convolvulus 6th 4590 and gr-granddam Grinstead Convolvulus 4th 4305
Homestead Cherry 5745 Grandsire Grinstead Throstle 1271 and Grandsire Grinstead Pretty Boy 2nd 1243
Merview Canty 5766 GR-sire Grinstead Plutocrat1155 Wenden Chota Peg 5789 Gr-dam Grinstead Hawk 27th 5035 and Gr-grandsire Grinstead black person Boy 1153 ****************************************************
No doubt there were animals in the Grinstead herd carrying RED. Were any of them what we have seen in America and called RED-DUN? Interesting adventure in research here for anyone who likes to dig into puzzles. I will share info with anyone interested and the online pedigree program in the UK is easy to use once you get the hang of alive/dead/other.
Judy
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Post by kansasdexters on Feb 14, 2013 10:08:32 GMT -5
Judy,
I added some additional information to my last post on p. 2 this morning. Howard Gould's Castlegould herd had a number of direct descendents from the Duchess of Devonshire's Compton Place herd. The Grinstead herd's foundation stock was also from the Compton Place herd. That is a common denominator between these two herds.
If the Grinstead herd was a source of Dun, then the Castlegould herd (which later became the Hempstead House herd) could also have been a source of Dun. The fact that both the Grinstead herd and the Castlegould herd obtained their foundation animals from the same source (Compton Place herd) supports the idea that Dun genetics came in with the original imports into the United States.
Do you have any English herd book information on J.S. Snelgrove's Kingswood herd, or specifically on Rotherfield Russet #932, the dam of Kingswood Country Girl #1151?
Patti
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