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Post by cddexter on Feb 14, 2013 11:06:27 GMT -5
hi..
932 Rotherfield Russet was registered as black, by La Mancha Patsy (123) out of Denham Milkmaid 4th (434).
PS Just for Judy: Quote: One of the first color traditions I ever heard was that dun will overpower red . ( I.E. if you want red don't breed dun in those lines). It seems to me, based on all info available that the bigger leap is to think dun carried silent for so many generations versus red when it seems to be the strongest of the two and there was so much line breeding because of the small gene pool in the early days of the US herd. ``
Judy, if I read this correctly, you were told if you want red don`t breed to dun but what you heard was dun overpowers red.
based on the experience they had at the time, if you bred red and dun together, you got black. Thus, if you wanted red, don`t use a dun animal. NOTHING to do with dun overpowering red.
See how easy it is to jump to the wrong conclusions....
PS: when comparing two things, use stronger. strongest is for comparing three or more.
cheers, c.
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Post by dexterfarm on Feb 14, 2013 11:32:50 GMT -5
Patti, Nice to see the pictures of Castlegould. If my dexters ever find out there ancestors were royalty and lived in castles they are going to want a nicer barn ;D. It might be nice to start another history thread. What do we know about the earliest dexter herds in America and England? Do we know anything about the Irish herds that contributed to the Dexters that made it to America?
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Post by kansasdexters on Feb 14, 2013 13:07:48 GMT -5
Thanks C. for the information on #932 Rotherfield Russet. What can you tell us about J.S. Snelgrove's Kingswood herd? I believe that he had some Dexters from the Duchess of Devonshire's Compton Place herd in his herd. They were almost neighbors, location-wise, and the Compton Place herd was a prize-winning herd with some of the best Dexter cattle available in England at the turn of the century. It would make sense that the Dexter owners near Compton Place would have a few animals from that herd.
#336 Malvern Signorina was sold from the Compton Place herd in 1904, as a bred cow (she was bred to #250 Compton Dignity) and she calved the heifer, #1237 Kingswood Courtly Girl, on 4/3/1905. But Malvern Signorina was originally from Col. Stallard's herd in Worcestershire. Do you have any information on that herd? I believe that Col. Stallard was the Mayor of Worcester at one time.
Patti
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Post by kansasdexters on Feb 14, 2013 13:13:57 GMT -5
Hi Mike,
You're welcome! The history of Dexter cattle is indeed very interesting and it involves many colorful characters. Times haven't changed much, have they?
Patti
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Post by Cascade Meadows Farm - Kirk on Feb 15, 2013 23:15:04 GMT -5
Two things to keep in mind:
1. Dun (brown) is simply a broken tyrp1 gene. That's why we find it in nearly animal breed.... because genes break regularly. A bull produces perhaps 5 billion sperm per day. That's 5 billion opportunities each day to misspell the tyrp1 gene. Now all sorts of mechanisms help make the DNA copying process fairly accurate, but still, many genes have a copy error rate of 1 in 5000 to 1 in 50,000. Every batch of semen from a non-dun-carrying-bull, has a good number of sperm with freshly broken tyrp1 genes. It's just a matter of time before a sperm with one of these broken tyrp1 genes is the one to win the race to the egg (resulting in a fresh dun mutation). Dun in Dexters may have arisen multiple times over the decades.
2. Recessive genes that occur at a low frequency in a herd, can hide for scores of generations without ever matching up. If you have a closed herd of 100 black cows and only one of those black cows carries dun, you could easily go a hundred years without ever seeing a dun calf. That's because in order to see dun, you would need to use a bull that carried dun. The bull would need to descend from the cow that carried the dun gene. But with 100 cows in the herd and 50 young bulls born each year, the chance that you would ever select a bull that descended from your single dun carrier, is very slim. Further, even if you did use a bull out of that dun carrying cow, there's a 50% chance he wouldn't carry dun.
You could go eons without seeing the dun gene doubling up and exhibiting.
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jamshundred
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Post by jamshundred on Feb 17, 2013 0:43:48 GMT -5
Patti, You are trying to deflect from the fact that I am correct. . . there are NO duns that can be proven before the imports of the 1950s. And if *I* were making these long stretches about dun on here I would be catching he-double ! Am I still hearing about musing that I suspected PHA was some how connected to polled when *I* knew it was in rampant in two of the three largest herds of polled Dexters? Or when I suggested that A1 genes was somehow connected to dun when dun Dexters in my herd were coming up with it and blacks were not back in the early testing. In one sense I was right about both - and I am right about this US dun issue too! CD just made a loud post saying some of us were trying to get rid of all dun Dexters because the color has been traced to Grinstead Plover and now you want to take it all the way back to the Compton herd with absolutely no proof behind Plover at all - and I don't hear a whisper! Why didn't you just take it on back to the herd of her Majesty, The Queen of England or " Her Grace The Duchess of Baronscourt", or perhaps the Countess De La Warr, or the Earl of Kingston all of whom owned early Dexters prior to the Compton herd that may or may not have brought dun to Lady Loder's Grinstead herd. Interesting to see just how far behind Plover someone can go, but it is still only speculation as to whether it came in with the breed, was a mutation, or was introgressed. None the less it is fun watching the hypocrisy in play!
Judy
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Post by rhonda on Feb 17, 2013 6:09:18 GMT -5
Well, this is WAY over my head...I like dun, I have dun and I'll keep dun
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Post by laughingllama75 on Feb 17, 2013 7:26:21 GMT -5
Well, this is WAY over my head...I like dun, I have dun and I'll keep dun Me too!
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Post by cddexter on Feb 17, 2013 11:01:42 GMT -5
Judy, I'm working 13 days straight right now, so don't have the time to wander through pedigrees for hours.
Would you mind checking out Twainland Caitlin for me? She does go back to Grinstead, but I can't tell if it's Plover or some other one without spending the time.
Since I know research is your meat and potatoes, would you check this out and let us know?
And, I guess I should add.....if dun has only shown up in animals with Plover in the background, what is it that you (the purity specialists) think this proves? Or, since there is no way to prove anything at this remove, why does it matter? Isn't this much like 'proving' Bullfinch brought in excess white?
thx, c.
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Post by cddexter on Feb 18, 2013 22:49:22 GMT -5
Judy?
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jamshundred
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Post by jamshundred on Feb 19, 2013 17:37:21 GMT -5
Yes, CD! Was that the sound of your fingers snapping I just heard?
J
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Post by cddexter on Feb 19, 2013 23:02:21 GMT -5
Nope. it was the hope that since you are so sincere about purity and have all this information that you think points to Plover, I thought you'd be interested in checking out a dun that I've been told doesn't relate back to Plover...in the interests of accuracy, I figured you'd like to know, so you could come back and either correct us or correct yourself. If you don't then your post will just be one more unfounded theory.
cheers, c.
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jamshundred
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Post by jamshundred on Feb 19, 2013 23:50:56 GMT -5
Carol, I don't think for a NY minute your ar sincere in your request. You have the same resources as I for research and purportly much better. You are just looking for a "gotcha" moment ( probably think you have one -sorry to disappoint you). I have nearly 50 DNA cases that were completed at UCD many of them reporting out today that need paperwork so not much time to humor you at the moment.
However. . . .
Dun is easily traced to Grinstead Plover. I've never said it began with him, I have never said it was a mutation, and I have never said it was introgressed and I AM curious about it's origins but doubt that will ever be determined in my Dexter lifetime. . . . . although. . DNA is moving along pretty quickly. . one never knows. . . .
I can make an assumption that it is probably more likely that it continues behind Plover than begins with him. I have done no research behind Plover as far as dun goes, however, the cow of which you inquire. . . has lots of Grinstead in her ancestors and I suspect she shares some of them with Plover.
I'd like to see a photo of Sparr Penny.
Judy PS - - That cow looks quite red in the photo . must be the position of the sun, but I have a cow that is her twin ( Fandi Sunset). What are her test results and what lab tested her for dun?
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Post by cddexter on Feb 20, 2013 10:56:47 GMT -5
too bad, Judy. Not trusting must make life difficult for you. No wonder we keep hearing your conspiracy theories.
I do have the resources, just not the time right now. Since all the hullaballoo has pinpointed Plover, I thought you might be interested. Not? fine by me, I'm not the doubting thomas.
cheers, c.
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jamshundred
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Post by jamshundred on Feb 20, 2013 15:46:00 GMT -5
Lose/Lose. I knew better! Darn it but I knew better! I knew I shouldn't have bothered that you were not sincere with the question. There isn't a day on God's green earth you would ever pretend I know more than you.( Or that anyone else does for that matter).
J
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