Gorignak
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Post by Gorignak on Aug 25, 2013 14:49:18 GMT -5
I reviewed the directives, codices, and pompostulations from both the infernal authorities and the avaricious merchandisers. I see easy ways to produce "grass fed" beef for sale that I would not allow my family to eat. When I say that " Selling Dexters is no different from selling Christmas trees", some want to resist the idea. Harvard and Yale Business Schools do not teach students how to market ANY THING.....it teaches them how to market anything. The principals of Marketing are the same for cement, farm machinery, fur coats, toilet paper, ....AND DEXTERS. So, to discuss "grass fed" without including the marketing implications is just idle chatter. AND, to discuss "grass fed" without discussing the full range of inputs allowed under the umbrella of, "Grass Fed Beef" , is disingenuous...at best. It is nearing autumn, and the "must do's" are chasing me like a chicken after a June Bug.....I have a lot of catch up to do, so forum posts are difficult to time. I really have an interest in this one. I expect to raise a quality beef that I can feel very good about seeing a 9 month old eating puree of the liver. I never bought a bit of baby food for our three kids...if they couldn't chew it, it went in the blender. So, I want my product to be "squeaky clean" healthy. Plus.....junior's first non-breast milk will be my Dexter A2/A2 milk..... I do care about that more than I care about $$$$$. But, I have to live, and profit. That brings us back to Genesis and......"In the beginning, He created a product. And, the product was good. But the product lacked sales for want of a proper Marketing plan. And He created a niche market to sell the product to....and all was GOOD." I think you know the story. It is not without setbacks....... try a GMO apple, anyone ??
SO.......GFB = Grass Fed Beef. Sorry, the answer to some of these questions may be somewhere in the 14 pages of USDA fine print.....my head exploded on page 4.
Can a calf being raised for GFB nurse on a cow who is treated with an antibiotic.? Can a calf who is being raised for GFB nurse on a cow who receives a pour on, injectable, or drench wormer? Can a calf who is being raised for GFB nurse on a cow who is treated with topical biting fly prevention or a pass-through larvacide? Can a calf who is being raised for GFB nurse on a cow who grazes in a commercially fertilized, herbicide or fungicide sprayed pasture, ? Can a calf who is being raised for GFB nurse on a cow who grazes on a pasture that the establishment seed was treated with neo- nicotinoids? Can a calf who is being raised for GFB nurse on a cow who has an insecticide ear tag? Can a calf who is being raised for GFB nurse on a cow who has any form of implant. Can a calf who is being raised for GFB nurse on a cow that eats GMO alfalfa ? Can a calf who is being raised for GFB nurse on a cow who eats GMO corn-stalk silage (x low kernel count) ? Can a calf/steer being raised for GFB be fed milk replacer with any non-bovine components ? Can a calf/steer being raised for GFB be fed GMO alfalfa. ? Can a calf/steer being raised for GFB graze on a pasture sprayed with a herbicide,fungicide or fertilized with commercial fertilizer ? Can a calf/steer being raised for GFB be wormed with chemical wormers ? Can a calf/steer being raised for GFB be protected chemically from flies ? Can a calf/steer being raised for GFB drink chlorinated water ?
I could go on...I won't. I'm really not looking for the answers. I'll find them somewhere in the next 6 months, I am looking for more questions.....Have any?? I will relate a quick story. A few years ago Consumer's Reports was doing a survey and evaluation of water filters and home water treatment units. One of their secret shoppers was in a store and observed a, "well heeled" lady discussing a costly home water treatment unit. As she spoke to the salesperson, she was smoking a cigarette. CR observed......she had far worse problems to worry about than treating her water.
I am trying to focus on the "problem", which is inputs that are not measured by the GFB label, and marketing that focuses our attentions on a single, easily understood feature. So far, all the hoopla surrounding GFB focuses on taste and texture, and carbohydrate inputs....ONCE YOU MENTION HEALTH OR FOOD SAFETY...... well, there are far larger problems than a bit of corn. Don't you think
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Post by midhilldexters on Aug 25, 2013 16:50:07 GMT -5
Mike, I dunno but you sound like you mix grass fed and organic up? At least that's how it comes over. I grass feed but I also worm, if I have to give antibiotics I do. I just choose not to feed grains, I'm not organic though and I wouldn't ever be. Do I use herbicides, yes if and when I have to, for instance this year my pastures started to get invaded with yellow sedge quite badly. Now I could leave it and let it take over and end up with the cows having no grass. I could have tried to dig it all out by hand, but I don't have that many years left in me, so had to buy something to deal with it. Does that make my beef any better or worse than anyone else's, not sure, never tasted anyone else's Dexter beef. I'm just a believer that cows eat grass and forbs, dogs eat meat, and pigs, well they'd eat us all if we stood still long enough.
Carol K
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Gorignak
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Post by Gorignak on Aug 25, 2013 19:01:04 GMT -5
Have you seen the movie "Zulu" ?? In the first battle scene the Zulu are charging the fort with no regard for their safety. The commander comments that is seems suicidal and stupid. The Afrikaner Scout tells him....."No, they're counting your guns". " The attack will come later when they know your strengths and weaknesses".
I'm just countin' guns, Carol.
Okay...I'm not mixing anything up. I am trying to draw out the "mixed message" crowd that transitions seamlessly from "Healthy" to "Better Quality". They are not mutually inclusive. I want to draw out a couple of more shots to see how much of this audience is interested in turning out the best tasting beef available, and how many are interested in the self - health caveat of "First, don't let them do any harm".
I respect the fact that the encroaching of an invasive species can produce a tension and a reaction that is unavoidable.....but possibly regrettable. It is that reaction, and its introduction into the Marketing that I am interested in. I am faced with EXACTLY the same choice with flies and corn I have asked this question before....if I can control ALL of my flies by giving my cattle a cup of hard-to-digest whole corn each day.....do I have a health advantage over a person who routinely uses pass-throughs, sprays and pour on chemicals. AND.....do I sacrifice my "Grass Fed" label, with an otherwise stellar performance at feeding only fodder, and improving my pasture at every chance.
Take a shot......Health or Taste. The real battle is to be fought in the population's perception of all of these Marketing Strategies. We ALL have a customer base. I'm trying to see what folks out there really believe.
Me.....I'm all for health....I'll chew a couple of extra chaws and be happy I don't have some unstoppable lump growin' on me from what I ate, if that is what it takes. Others are committed to the luxury....and I enjoy their company and wish them a long, long time on life's stage entertaining and informing me and mine. Just trying to sort it all out....... Thanks Carol.....and, darn....you helped me figure out something else. The kids 40 pigs will eat me if and when I slow down. They are trying to squeeze every last mile out of me that they can...... and then save the cremation charges. I have to get one of those "old folks, fall-down" alarms that calls the ambulance or helicopter if you stop moving for 2 minutes......
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Post by midhilldexters on Aug 25, 2013 19:34:54 GMT -5
Mike, if I were to buy beef from you and you had told me it was grass fed, then in conversation I was to find out that you used a little grain once in a while, then yes I would be PO'd you advertised and sold me something that you had, in essence lied to me about. So from a marketing standpoint, big mistake as I am gonna tell everyone what you did. Now if I didn't care and just wanted some wholesome farm raised meat then ok, no problem. It's you that has to decide what you sell your product as. I have no idea what your area is looking for. I chose a no grain approach as I believe that's what cows should eat for their own health, if I benefit from it also, then it's an added bonus. It seems like you may want to do grass fed but weighing up the other pros and cons has you troubled. Well you could run around after the cows throwing a handful of cracked corn on every cow pile you find, you could invent a robot that does it for you, but in all honesty probably easier to feed the corn, and come up with a marketing sentence to advertise your beef. I don't use fly tags, didn't use a rub or oil this year ( not to say I don't agree with those things) never had a case of pink eye, I allow my cows in to a barn during the day to get away from the flies, they come and go as they please. I get to do housekeeping for them all year around. This year I think the flies were worse than last year, but I don't know if it was because of weather, or not using any fly killers? Next year I am going to make some traps, think of a way to break up the cow piles, maybe try a drag. Let me know if you come up with any good ideas!
Carol K
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Post by kansasdexters on Aug 25, 2013 21:18:51 GMT -5
Herd health and well being is absolutely the first priority for producing high quality beef or milk for sale or consumption. If the animals aren't healthy and thriving, then no amount of "certifications" or marketing will make any difference. Many people want to see how their food is raised, so it's important to have an "open door" policy and be able to welcome visitors almost anytime and on short notice. That means keeping fences fixed, buildings and facilities maintained, pastures in good condition, and animals well groomed and friendly towards people. Many people want to taste Dexter beef before they decide to commit to purchasing a side, or split side, or whole animal. That means having samples of your grass finished beef available for prospective customers. If you don't know anything about actually grass finishing a high quality beef steer, then don't pretend that you do. If you want to talk the talk, then be prepared and willing to walk the walk. Keep good records, take good care of your livestock, take good care of your farm/ranch, and take good care of your customers. Here is what our biggest wholesale Dexter beef customer has to say about us: www.themerc.coop/postdetail.cfm?id=561Patti
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Post by Olga on Aug 26, 2013 7:57:06 GMT -5
Mike, (edited to say: isn't it funny how) most nutritional and pest problems are resolved by proper pasture management. If one was to set up a rotation of pastures (assuming they can get water to every paddock) and moved cattle often enough to disrupt the worm cycle, there would be no need for wormers and poor-ons. Same goes for "supplementation", small paddocks that get grazed and trampled and cow-fertilized for a short time, then get 30 +/- days of rest -- they would provide such lovely nutrition that no grain would be necessary. At least, according to that one dude who has been doing cattle research in Africa.
Patti, may be you know. I was told by a grass-fed meat producer that by definition, up to 10% daily intake of grain is allowed. Is that right?
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Post by lakeportfarms on Aug 26, 2013 9:49:15 GMT -5
Patti, that's a really nice write up about your farm and your practices. It's something that we all should aspire to do ourselves, no matter how large or small the herd we have. I must say from personal experience, it gets a lot harder when your herd gets large! Just curious, how many acres and how many Dexters on average do you carry on those acres, when are you able to get them on pasture in the spring and how long does your forage hold out at the end of the year, and how do you manage the herd when the frost comes out of the ground and you would like to protect your pasture until it's ready to graze? Even though some of us have different conditions, ground types, etc..., I think we could all learn what does and doesn't work from you, especially with the numbers that you have.
Olga, you're absolutely correct about the managed grazing practices. We have a few cows that have so well adapted to our twice daily moves during grazing season, that they can now wean a BIG steer at 8 months and they're still fat, on forage alone. Prior to our intensive grazing, we would have to remove the calf much earlier as the cows were losing a lot of condition, and we didn't want to feed grain or supplement the cow because we felt it was counterproductive to converting them to forage alone and would set us back toward that goal. We also noticed that on the more mature cows that we had purchased, and who had been on both forage and grain diet, that it took nearly two grazing seasons for them to adapt to a forage only based diet. We have that happening right now with some really nice cows we couldn't refuse earlier this spring. They were given lots of grain and looked great when we purchased them, but they're struggling on the forage alone. It's going to be a couple of years for them to start to improve, I would bet.
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Post by Clive on Aug 26, 2013 10:09:23 GMT -5
Are any of you members or follow the American Grass-Fed Association (AGA). I asked about joining because there wasn't an English version at the time, now there is, but haven't joined that either as it happens. Anyhow, the standards produced by the AGA are fascinating. They have three different categories of grass-fed and they have standards for each one. Pasture-raised is the "highest" grade and I think that means just grass. the other two allow feeding of certain feeds, peanut hulls I think, brewers grain and other things which apparently do not skew the balance of fatty acids in the beef.
The AGA's standards seem to make sense and that's what we try and follow. We can't grass-feed all the time, it just isn't possible, and some of the feeds mentioned by AGA don't exist in England, so I buy equivalents when I can to try and match the two lower AGA grades.
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Post by kansasdexters on Aug 26, 2013 11:20:11 GMT -5
Here is a link to the American Grass-Fed Association site's standards: www.americangrassfed.org/about-us/our-standards/Our cattle are always on pasture, year-round. We have five 20+ acre pasture areas, and three are in use at any one time, while two pastures are resting. The steers get the best pastures, the heifers and cows with heifer calves get the lesser pastures. When grass isn't growing well (or at all), we put out high quality brome hay (in the late winter and early spring) or prairie/mixed grass hay (in the late fall and early winter). If we need to supplement or treat, we use alfalfa pellets. The bulls (three of them) have their own paddock (2 acres with ponds) and adjacent 5-acre pasture area. We have a small breeding paddock, adjacent to the barn area and the bull paddock, where we can bring the cow or heifer to the bull, when she is in a standing heat. We also use this area for calving in the spring and fall. In addition, we have approximately 60 acres of woodland, mostly oaks, cottonwood, walnut, and hickory, along the creek that divides our property. The cattle have limited access to a portion of this and they graze leaves and brush, as well as gain protection from the heat of the sun or the chill of the winds. Our grassfed/grass finished beef is exactly that, it is raised on grass pasture and finished on grass pasture. For the health of our herd, we do vaccinate, we do use a pour-on wormer (Eprinex), and we do use fly control (routine harrowing of the pastures, traps, fly predators, and Clean-up pour-on). We have automatic waterers in our pasture areas, and that water is the same as what we drink -- it comes from our rural water district and it has a chlorine residual that meets the State standard for drinking water. We've had as many as 80 head of cattle (cows, calves, steers, and bulls), but we normally go into winter with less than 70 head. We will grass finish, custom process, and sell 22 animals this year for beef. Patti
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Post by karenp on Aug 26, 2013 12:02:47 GMT -5
Patti, Your place sounds heavenly.
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Gorignak
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Post by Gorignak on Aug 26, 2013 16:07:11 GMT -5
Clive...thanks for that lead. I probably skimmed their site, but I was focusing on the restrictive end of the label. The "Brewers Grain" that you mention is DDG. I have used it off and on since 1971 for pigs. In the USA it is fermented out almost completely...27% protein, and few available carbohydrates or sugars. I have talked to some of the Aussies, their DDG seems to be less fermented, and higher in carbs. I think that the approach you described is the sanest, and most accommodating of an earnest effort in an area with less fertile conditions than Kansas or Michigan, Iowa or, Minn. It would be a long time before my 160 acres of very thin soil could fully support an all grass fed effort.....I'm trying.
Hans...are you even interested in a "grass fed" label for your beef products, and where does a TTL of beet pulp fall on the scale of allowable feeds to maintain a "grass fed" profile.That description of the transition to fodder from grain taking a couple of years is not falling on deaf ears here....I can see it already.
Patti....Well, you gave all your secrets away. But it probably won't even register as gold to most. "You wouldn't know a Diamond if you held it in your hand"...Steely Dan, "Reelin' in the Years".
The exact same principals that Patti outlined as essential to marketing a high quality agricultural product....hold for us marketing our Furniture....EXACTLY the same....that is my purpose in asking the questions I asked....who here understands Marketing. And who here understands the lapses in honesty and integrity that often accompany..."Grass Fed"...."Organic"....."Natural".....and other quasi-defined labels and terms. Does everyone understand the largest amount of money spent to defeat the GMO labeling proposition in Calif. was spent by Monsanto....the second largest spender ON THE SIDE OF DEFEATING THE LABELING WAS A GROUP OF "ORGANIC" AND "NATURAL" FOOD SUPPLIERS AND PRODUCERS.
Do you understand your Market ?? Today's Customer ?? Tomorrow's Customer. Where is your "Market" headed, and where do you want to be positioned......Luxury taste......guaranteed natural and safe......animal condition and treatment conscious..... ?? Here's one that may have even Patti shaking her head. 22 years ago, I had already been a member of the Ozark Cooperative Warehouse for almost 15 years. WE SOLD to the coop that did the glowing writeup of Patti's farm and cattle. We sold them MOST of what they resold retail. In its final form, the OCW was huge, with a fleet of tractor/trailers that delivered Natural, Organic products to retailers and buying clubs in 11 states. It was one of the three largest Natural Food distributors in the country...... The hippies bought miso and tofu, peanuts and barley, beans and rice, and later a growing collection of premade and packaged "natural products". Millions of dollars worth of it....... BUT OCW DIDN'T SELL ANY MEAT.... No, everyone was either a vegetarian, or they sourced their meat locally and sometimes clandestinely. I was WAY, WAY, ahead of the curve when I went in and approached the CEO....... "I think I could produce a line of near Organic Pork Products for you"...."I think we could utilize a USDA processor, and you could distribute a line of 'All Natural' pork". "It would be clean, no antibiotics, no additives, free range. We could work out the details and protocols to meet the customers expectations for a healthy, natural product.
The response was instantaneous..... " I don't think we are going to be selling any "Natural pork chops or sausage" , combined with a laugh that lasted the whole sentence.
OCW went into a steep decline in 2000, and bankrupt in 2006, leaving thousands of loyal customers and hundreds of retail stores scrambling for a new supplier. One of the reasons they bankrupted was the failure by management to recognize the shift away from "Organic" to "Natural" and .....in our case, to "Grass Fed"...."Pasture Raised" .....and "Free Range". People were becoming less tolerant of the dietary limitations that accompanied the "organic" label. And, the Atkins diet, which stressed a 1.8 million year involvement with meat consumption by humans, was the talk show rage.....making meat more "natural" than lentils and chickpeas. The average height of the Europeans declined 6" during the transition from "Hunter Gatherer" to "Agrarian" cultures.....
Patti understands marketing....Patti probably worries a lot about the day-to-day of her farm, and a whole lot about the "tomorrow" that she will have to deal with. The coop that she sells to switched hands several times, and in the course of management changes, changes in perception were allowed to creep in. Any "Natural Foods" store that is in business today has coolers full of high quality meat.....fresh "all Natural" turkeys during the holidays.....and frozen, "all natural, pasture raised" pork and beef By the way......I'm raising and selling "natural" pork. I have a friend who just told me ...... " I have over 1000 people eating my meat, I'll take 250 chicks every three months if you can hatch them......how many pigs do you think you could turn out every 6 months??" " I can't keep up". He spends $800 every three months on "organic" and "non GMO" spices for his brats and sausage.
SO....who's gonna sign up for Patti's "Grass Fed Marketing" 101 course.......??
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Post by lakeportfarms on Aug 26, 2013 19:13:56 GMT -5
Hans...are you even interested in a "grass fed" label for your beef products, and where does a TTL of beet pulp fall on the scale of allowable feeds to maintain a "grass fed" profile.That description of the transition to fodder from grain taking a couple of years is not falling on deaf ears here....I can see it already.Mike, For one, the beet tailings were a bit of an emergency measure last year after the terrible summer of hay we had here. I'm undecided if I'll do them again this year, as we have ample hay put up to get us to spring this year. I don't think it is the same as corn or grain, for example the crude protein is not very high, running around 8% or so. The cows did seem to be more satisfied than they were just with hay. No doubt the beets are "roundup ready", but to aim specifically for the buyers that demand that product just isn't practical for a farm with the numbers of animals we have. We don't advertise our herd as organic or 100% grass fed, but we do tell people that they are not fed corn at all, and they may get some training with a little bit of stock feed when they are young so they'll come to the sound of a bucket. Once they've learned that, they won't get it again. They visit and see the cows in pasture with fresh grass 2 or 3x per day during the grazing season, or munching on apples during the fall, and compare that to the images they have seen of the feedlot or even the guy "down the street" who has their cows in a small pasture of dirt and weeds with some moldy hay in the bent and broken round bale feeder, and that is enough information for them to determine that what they're getting from us looks much more appealing and healthy. How would you describe the feed they receive from the hundreds of apple trees that are on the property? By the beginning of November, when the property would ordinarily be so covered with apples that if we went for a walk it would be like walking on marbles, there is rarely an apple to be found on the ground. We don't spray anything on the trees, but it clearly isn't grass that they're eating there either. Actually, for the first time ever, we're very close to taking in a steer that has been in the clover and grass ahead of the rotation of one of the herds, and I've been cutting overgrown branches where he's been chomping on apples and pears for the past month. This one is going to be ours, and I'll let you know how good he tastes or if I can detect the apple flavor in the beef. It should be interesting...
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Gorignak
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Post by Gorignak on Aug 27, 2013 19:06:52 GMT -5
Yeah , Hans, you are hitting the reality right on the head. Accurate to say to any customer...."I'm doing my best" and let them know what you believe in.
I looked at the "Grass Fed" association....I had browsed their site before. My personal opinion.....Poppycock.... their site reads like a cross between a 1970's Mother Earth News, and a screenplay for a Cheech and Chong movie. The mumbo-jumbo conceals huge holes in their inspection and certification process. There is a singular lack of focus and thoroughness in vetting the various levels of heaven that can be achieved by including or excluding this or that product. They may not wrap themselves in the mantle of "healthier", but they do nothing to carefully define their lack of scope or interest in certifying freedom from far more dangerous practices. This is the water filter lady who is smoking a cigarette.
On the other hand, their goals are honorable and should be a beacon to all who aspire to better. But, I think that personal integrity has far more leverage than some half baked association. WE CAN TAKE THE GOALS AND WORK WITH THEM IN OUR OWN PERSONAL FASHION. But, to use that association as a gold star on your letterhed shows how shallow and cursory many consumers really are..... Clive has it right.....look at them for guidance.
You are probably on the right track Hans, but I would hold your feet to the fire and challenge that for all the time spent on the internet, you COULD know a lot more about the effect of the apple crop, or the beet pulp composition....I looked.....beet pulp has a VERY advantageous nutritional profile, and might actually fit right into a forage based system....THERE IT IS...THEY are selling "Grass Fed" , when the reality is, you can have a VERY HEALTHY forage based system with grass/hay as key ingredient in a balanced diet.....but no more important than any other forage or fiber that fits the profile...
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Post by wvdexters on Aug 28, 2013 7:37:46 GMT -5
This is very interesting guys. I'm enjoying reading and most importantly I am learning alot.
We are just in the beginnings here. The set-up stage. The we're trying our best stage. Our goals are set; trying to grow and provide the healthiest, safest food supply for our family. Keep the ideas and information coming.
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Post by karenp on Aug 28, 2013 8:23:23 GMT -5
"he's been chomping on apples and pears for the past month. This one is going to be ours, and I'll let you know how good he tastes or if I can detect the apple flavor in the beef. It should be interesting..."
I've read finishing pork on apples (and acorns) does wonderful things to the flavor, please do let us know how the beef turns out.
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