Grass Fed or Sort Of

[Gorignak]

WOW...let's go fishin'...you just opened a can of worms !!
I hadn't thought about the acorn crop that my "grass fed" cattle will feast on. And, I can't help with guessing the outcome....HOWEVER, the "Grass Fed Association" does allow "Browse".....this is great, no fixed reality....just a floating decimal point of "forage" products.

BUT...I can comment on what acorns do to pigs. The Spanish have two grades of ultra-premium hams...one is raised ENTIRELY on acorns, the other is about 50% acorns, and the rest corn based feed. Soybeans and peanuts make pork SOFT....the fat is not as hard.....acorns have the same effect. The locals used to run their hogs out on acorns, then round them up and feed them straight corn for about 2-4 weeks to "harden them off". Cows headed for slaughter probably would need a similar hardening off. It could just be sweet hay or good sweet pasture for a month. ACORNS WILL FATTEN AN ANIMAL FAST.

AND THE TASTE.....YUMMMMMMMMY

[otf]

CAUTION!

www.uaex.edu/Other_Areas/publications/PDF/FSA-3104.pdf

For more, google "acorn toxicity cattle."

[midhilldexters]

Ah I see Gale already gave you the warning on acorns , do your research Mike, but cows won't react the same way as pigs with acorns, your herd I know but is it worth the risk? I've heard of many grazing acorns before, not sure I'd risk it but...

Carol K

[Gorignak]

Thanks Guys. I'm going to work around this one. NO WAY to avoid acorns. We will run pigs with the cattle, goats also. But, there are going to be lots of them (acorns). At least they are mostly white oak....less toxic....and Post Oak....much less toxic. We logged, but left the post oaks.

It will take some clever rotation to have them full on grass when they get to the acorns each day.
I'll bet I have a low internal parasite load....the tannins are great worm control. It WILL be a a situation that I can't "set and forget". Keep me thinking.

[wvdexters]

We have to manage acorns here too. There is no way to avoid them. We bring the cattle in from under the trees when they start to drop. Many local farmers turn them out into the hay fields for the season until the deer and squirrels do their work. The cattle still get them along the fence rows but it slows them down.

[Clive]

I'm a huge fan of grass-fed, eat nothing else and I know for sure it has helped me health-wise in terms of what's in my blood. But I think there is a problem with the title, it's too simple, and I don't think you can be too prescriptive because of all the complications. When I started I did a huge amount of research into grass-fed and have a stack of information and test results somewhere on my hard drive.

If it's a balance of fatty acids that you are after, one of the issues is that it isn't just grass that's good. Clover is even better by quite a margin, and other plants I'm sure are as good or better. And some grasses are better than others. Conversely, hay, a mainstay of the grass-fed diet, looses all or most of it's omega-3's during the wilting process, so should it be part of a grass-fed diet at all? Short-wilted silage is much better if I remember correctly. On top of that, if the grass has gone to seed, like mine last year due to weather, the cattle will be automatically eating "grain" (the seed heads ... is there a difference?). In some forages, that could be quite substantial. Maybe even a beast fed on a small amount of grain and early-cut forage, might be more "grass-fed" than one eating just seeded hay? Maybe the same with grazing grass that has headed. Depending on the species, this could be quite a bit of grain. Maybe that makes a nonsense of foggage, don't know, but I'd have my concerns.

A better, or more accurate title might be, "not-grain-fed", but it's not very catchy is it , or "naturally-raised" ? Just to confuse everybody, at one point I was calling my beef clover-reared, which it was.

I don't know whether your acorns are the same as ours, but ours are toxic to cattle and sheep.

[midhilldexters]

Agree Clive, it's all so up in the air about just what it means. I like the "grain free" title.

Carol K

[midhilldexters]

Like everything else though the public hear and read what they want to hear and read.
I could sell meat that I said was grass finished. The general public would probably buy it, not knowing it could have been grain fed for two years.
Like Clive mentioned, some term grass fed as no seed heads, no hay etc etc. I guess it's each to their own to explain if your are total grass fed / grass finished or what percentage etc etc.

Carol K

[Gorignak]

Clap, Clap, Clap.....that is more like it.
Trying to Waltz to a Tango is a recipe for...well, at least embarrassment. I was trying to draw out how nonsensical the term "Grass Fed" is in the scheme of things that MOST of us face....The cattle are confined, for heavens sake, and they aren't doing much "normal" in any state east of Montana.

It WOULD help if everyone helped everyone learn what can be AVOIDED in the course of normal husbandry. I am hard put to suppress paroxysms of laughter at the thought of some die-hard anti-everything stockman watching an animal die that a short course of Penn V would save. Yeah, right....and no medicine for the kids either ??!!!

USING ANTIBIOTICS does not preclude an "antibiotic free" label.....Antibiotics are routinely used and misused in the day to day maintenance of livestock...
THAT IS WHAT THIS DISCUSSION IS ABOUT, AND WHAT SHOULD BE STOPPED. YOU ALL ARE ON THE RIGHT TRACK....

It was 30 years ago that a friend who worked at a huge feed mill for a major poultry grower here told me a chilling story.....He was dumb as a sack of hammers, and was in "charge" of dialing the mix ingredient quantities into the augers and mixers. HE MISPLACED A DECIMAL POINT WHEN HE ADDED THE ANTIBIOTICS TO A 100 TON MIX. The mix ended up with 10X the antibiotics in it. It was on trucks and headed out to growers before the mistake was ever caught.....Gobble. Gobble.
HEY, Do you remember the year you didn't get a cold !! I know, a cold is a virus, but you get the point.

This forum would do a great service to buckle down and work out protocols that could be supplied to the smaller breeders/owners, that allowed them to argue intelligently for the limits they face....the absurdity of the three word questions that seek three word answers.....and the sincerity and concern that they bring to their husbandry....

Hey, you Brits....too bad your acorns are toxic....the Quercus Robur make some fine lumber. OUR white oaks are less toxic. The American Indians ate flour from the Post Oak acorn. We logged, but left all our post oaks. The deer and turkeys love them. My son knows 30 post oaks that he creeps around in the fall and kills 6-8 deer under.

[midhilldexters]

Hey Gene,
Won't your cows eat a mineral without the grain? I feed a mineral also, but I just put it out In a bowl and they mob it. Not that I'm saying you should not feed your grain, just wandering why they won't eat it without? I bought a sheep mineral once and they wouldn't touch it, bought a different brand and all was ok.

Carol K

[Clive]

I don't think grass-fed does, should, or can mean totally grass fed. It's no different to Organic. Can't speak for the US but in the UK Organic farmers still give anti-biotics to animals, they just have to fill in a form first and double the withdrawal period. Organic farmers can also use non-organic produce / feed but only in limited amounts. So Organic is not 100% organic and it probably never can be, same with grass-fed, it's just "mainly grass-fed".

But a key factor is the finishing, because I have seen test results that prove that 90 days of grain finishing on an otherwise grass-fed beast, destroys almost all the benefit of the natural diet, and by 120 days it's all gone and it is just feed-lot beef.

[rezzfullacres]

Consumers today are becoming more and more interested in the HOWS of the way thier food is raised. We sell beef, pork, lamb and poultry at the local farmers market, the custumers are not looking for a 3 word answer, they want and expect an explanation. It is not uncommon for a new customer to spend 20 to 30 minutes discussing the methodology we use to raise our animals..Many of the "new" customers want a farm tour to see for themselves, we have a phone first policy for numerous reasons. We have found that the key to a happy customer is honesty......Just simply tell the truth.....We do not claim grass fed, free range, organic or any of the other terms out there. We simply state we raise our animals on pasture with any necessary supplementation to ensure the health and well being of our livestock. We have a sign in our sales booth and on our price list that simply says "Our animals are reaised with kindness and respect on our family farm in Bedford,Va, We strive to produce the healthiest animals in the most natural way possible. Our animals are pasture raised. They receive no growth hormones and antibiotics only when medically necessay for the animals well being. All young are born on our farm with the exception of Cornish Hens which are purchased as day old chicks from a reputable hatchery. Butchering is performed in a humane and stress free environment. These practices result in a high quality, healthy and flavorfull product that we are proud to provide to our family and yours" There are a lot of misconceptions out there and it is your job as a seller to honestly state what you do and how you do it. As far as acorns, you do not have to have a bumber crop to be fatal, we lost a bull last year to acorn poisoning. He was the only animal in the herd affected, he was the only animal affected on that farm in the 20 years we have pastured cattle there, so it can happen...Good luck in your sales