Associations, Labs, and Legacy... oh my

[jamshundred]

Good morning Indexters,

Legacy established the first and only Dexter genotype database in the western hemisphere at UCD-VGL in 2004 and the only genotype registry established with a focus on recording and making a permanent record of the Dexter breed, one Dexter at a time!

UCD-VGL developed DNA technology in cattle testing in the mid 1950's, and they had worked with many breeds over the years, so this was a long established world reputed lab. There was, in 2004, no other lab in the US doing DNA testing of Dexter cattle for ADCA or PDCA. All the tests for Dexter cattle were being sent to the Bovacan lab in Canada.

Legacy was established as a preservation effort for bloodlines previous to 1987 imports that had ancestors in the modern English upgrading program. The numbers of foundation pure bloodlines were discovered to have dropped to crisis levels, and it was obvious that the other pre-1987 bloodlines were also rapidly entering a crisis of numbers. To validate the Legacy preservation effort it was required for all animals to be genotyped.

Around 2007 Dr. Cothran set up his lab on the campus of Texas A&M. At the time, ADCA could not get their samples tested in Canada, someone with ADCA knew Dr. Cothran, and they set up testing with his lab. PDCA still continued to test in Canada, eventually switching their testing to Igenity. . ( many of the PDCA breeders are beef producers and liked the commercial marketing tests available).

I highly recommend UCD-VGL for testing, and frankly, I have no doubts that all Dexter owners will gradually end up there. There is no finer lab in America, and the service and expedient system are exemplary. I have had Legacy members have their registration papers in hand within 4 days of UCD-VGL receiving the sample.

I am a person that believes my fellow colleagues should be fully informed about anything that affects their life or business interests. I am not a fan of the Cothran lab. The lab is Dr. Cothran's lab, it is not "ran" by Texas A&M, the equipment belonged to another lab that went out of business a few years ago, it is admitted the equipment is dated and there are problems with parts and repairs. .. . and frankly, there are too many mistakes from that lab, some of them ( like PHA or A2) that can be economically a burden for an owner, or worse-case could cause a Dexter it's life if culled because of an erroneous result.

Legacy began as a preservation effort but also a goal was to make a permanent DNA record of all the oldest cows in America and eventually the Dexter breed. That is still the focus. Legacy has NOT attempted to replace the associations. . . but to be a safe haven for all Dexter cattle. There were political issues which caused owners to drop out of the registries, financial issues, other issues. Legacy has attempted to identify and make a permanent record of any Dexter that would qualify for registry in the existing associations. These permanent records mean a Dexter can always be returned to the breed and an existing association/registry by an owner. It is troubling to me personally to watch the continued expansion of non-registered Dexters across the country. These animals are being lost to our breed history and bloodlines. Legacy provides a safe haven for the owners who simply do not wish to pay membership fees, or other fees and the Dexters would otherwise be lost to our breed. There are a number of Dexters now registered in ADCA because Legacy was responsible for genotyping an ancestor or the animal itself.

It is a goal that the Legacy genotype registry contain all Dexters, and the cost is reasonable and there are benefits that are growing. Click on the *P* feature and check the purple pedigrees. The work and commitment of so many breeders is impressive! Along with the pedigrees, Legacy identifies bloodline categories so that breeders KNOW which bloodlines are in pedigrees and can make INFORMED choices. This has NEVER been available to Dexter breeders before. The advantages will continue to grow and Legacy will keep the costs down so that Dexter owners can help build the genotype registry/database and support the associations of their choice.

Legacy suggests that breeders DNA test through Legacy or with UCD-VGL and add their animal to the Legacy genotype database. Help build the first and only registry dedicated to making a permanent record of the Dexter breed. ( Legacy is slowly moving into INTERNATIONAL Dexters as well).

Legacy IS a good choice for making a permanent record of your Dexter!

Judy

[kansasdexters]

Prior to 2007, when Dr. Cothran (at Texas A&M University, College Station, TX) started providing genetic testing services to the ADCA, another lab (ImmGen) at College Station, TX provided parentage genotype testing (which was required by the ADCA for all out-of-herd AI bulls after 2003).

In 2004, the following genetic testing services were offered through the ADCA (Reference: ADCA Dexter Bulletin, Fall 2004 issue):

Red Factor (red gene) testing was by Genetic Visions in Wisconsin (cost $40).

Dun Factor (dun gene) testing was by Agrigenomics (Dr. John Beever's lab) in Illinois (cost $22).

Chondrodysplasia (bulldog gene) testing was by Agrigenomics in Illinois (cost $35).

DNA Genotyping (ID record for AI bulls and Parentage Verification) was by ImmGen in Texas (cost $28)


In 2005, after Agrigenomics (Dr. John Beever's lab) modified its license agreement with Reprogen (University of Sydney in Australia) for testing for Chondrodysplasia and Dun Factor, these tests could then be offered through Bova-Can Laboratories in Saskatchewan, Canada. At the time, there was only one lab in North America that was licensed to perform the test for Chondrodysplasia, and that's why both the ADCA and PDCA sent samples to this lab in Canada starting in 2005. UC-Davis did not offer either of these tests at that time, because the owner of the license (Reprogen) hadn't made an agreement with them for this testing yet.

Dr. Cothran's lab (at Texas A&M) began offering Chondrodysplasia testing in June 2007, after Reprogen approved its licensing agreement. In 2007, Dr. Cothran's lab also offered Dun Factor, Red Factor, color profile, and genotype testing (for parentage and ID), Reference: DNA Testing, p. 86, 2007 ADCA Membership Directory. At the time, this genetic testing, all done at one lab, was competitively priced:

Chondrodysplasia - $35
DNA Genotyping - $35
Red Factor - $35
Dun Factor - $35
Color Profile (both Red & Dun) - $60

The first Dexter owner/breeders to begin genetic testing of their animals were those that offered AI bull semen for sale and/or bred and registered red Dexter cattle. Sandi Thomas (Thomas' Dexters) advertised her Dexter semen for sale in the Dexter Bulletin Fall 2004 and her ad included information that Briarwood Blaze O'Glory ADCA #10329, Thomas' Prides Red Baron ADCA #4882, Thomas' Magic Pride ADCA #3848, and Thomas' Reu Grande ADCA #3847 had all been color tested and DNA genotyped. At that time, John Potter was not only testing his own animals, he was helping other ADCA members to get their animals genetically tested.

The ADCA is the oldest registry of Dexter cattle in the United States. It has been in continuous existence for over 50 years and both of the late comers (PDCA and Legacy) have based their pedigrees on the ADCA pedigrees. When we started our Dexter herd in 2004, we chose to register our Dexter cattle with the ADCA and now, after 9 years, we're very glad that we did. We've never done multiple registrations for the same animal, we simply register all of our breeding stock, consistently, with one registry, the ADCA. This approach works very well for us and helps to market our Dexter breeding stock (it's less confusing to prospective buyers).

The ADCA continues to improve its offering of genetic tests at competitive prices with qualified testing laboratories. It's nice to have the ADCA options, and to also be able to shop around and use other qualified labs as new genetic tests become available.

Patti

[indexters]

Thanks Patti for the history on the lab. I knew the ADCA history (brief version), but not the lab. I just find it interesting to see how the testing of these animals has progressed. I am even more amazed at how quickly the testing seems to be advancing on what we test for. I know I am thankful to all who have gone before me and on whose knowledge I am beginning to build my herd. I loved biology and especially genetics in college and I am still fascinated in it. Even more so now that it affects my choices for breeding.

[cddexter]

and there you have it, folks.

Back when only two labs in the US were licensed for red factor testing, the ADCA chose Genetic Visions because that's the lab that did the testing for the original research projec, and they were the only lab in North America that had a file of Dexter color test dna. The other lab was NOT UCD. Red factor testing was NOT available there. Patti has it right about the chondro test availability, too. originally only Jon Beever had North American rights. Yours truly arranged for Canada to have its own testing license. When Jon Beever's lab became unreliable (owners couldn't get results reported back, and hard a really hard time getting any hard copy), US Dexter assns. turned to Canada as the only reliable source.

It's all very well for someone to criticize multiple labs now there is a choice, but it's certainly selective reasoning, and certainly not playing fair with the facts. cheers, c.

[Deleted]

We, way over here like UCD.

We like the idea they carry out the same test with two technicians, compare results, if they are the same result -good
If not, the test is carried out again by senior technicians.

I like their testing process, the email notification of progress, love the prices ($25 for the first test and $10 for each test there after) AND love the efficiency.

It's great to have a choice in where you have your tests performed even though it can be a little daunting in the initial stage of trying to make the 'right' choice for your long term goals.

Cheers Donna

[Deleted]

Genebo that is horrible - now a good outcome for you, but yes what about all those 'other' parent verified tests?

Maybe it's time for a spot-check here, a double check!

Process, procedure, equipment and skill can all influence a result - even in a laboratory and I don't know how Queensland conduct their tests.

Mmmmmmmm ( oh yes I am waiting for the fire to burn hot under some with that statement, but I want to be 110% sure with facts, not hearsay)

[lakeportfarms]

I'll go way back to my college days when I learned about a product life cycle, sometimes those who have good skills, experience, innovation, and are first to the market or to produce something does not translate into running an efficient, well run, and profitable organization. Over time, the efficient, accurate, and customer service driven businesses take over the market share and either force the early innovators to succeed or drive them out of business. I think you see an example of this with the testing in the past, and more recently, most recently with Gus Cothran's lab and UCDavis VGL.

I expect and hope to see better service out of Gus Cothran's lab or at some point or you'll all be sending your samples to UC Davis.

That's just the way it is...

[wvdexters]

I knew you had some big issues with the lab from your past posts but I did not realize the extent of those problems. What really stood out to me in your post is the many mistakes made in the genotyping category.

What about all those other genotypes that were done in this lab?

With all the concern and importance that we are placing on genotyping our dexter bulls, and now the push toward genotyping cows for PARENTAGE VERIFICATION this is an issue.

What's going to happen when all this testing is done and the parentage verifications come back wrong because of the incorrect genotypes currently on file? This is going to be a nightmare of paperwork.

People need to be informed so these errors can be fixed. ASAP Before these animals in question are gone and can't be retested. Some may already be gone.

The lab should have notified everyone who paid for a genotype during that time period that the results may be incorrect and should have retested every animal for free. Not to do so is (in my opinion) a breech of trust.

The ADCA should become involved. The members need to be aware of this issue.

An incorrect genotype is worse than no genotype at all. We need to identify those animals with suspect testing results, notify the owners and get this matter fixed. I would believe that all genotypes done at the lab prior to their "recalibration" would fall into this category. This could be a substantial number. And since the majority of those being genotyped were bulls this situation could have a significant impact on the present and future parental verification results of many dexters.

[midhilldexters]

WVDexters, chill, not sure when Genes issue was but years ago I think. We have a choice of labs, can we all move on now?

Carol K

[midhilldexters]

Genebo, you owe Carol D an apology, it wasn't her that posted it was me, Carol K! Just because you had an issue doesn't mean that everyone does, for most it would seem that things run smooth, but you people just want to bash a lab, well most of us are sick of reading it, move on. No one is adding to the problem at all, you are the ones that spend time lab bashing, get over it.

Carol K, in sunny England!

[wvdexters]

Hi Carol, Chill. Boy I wish I could. It is 90+ here with high humidity and I think I am melting

I didn't mean to get into all the "political lab testing stuff" and when I reread my post I can see how it could be taken that way. I went back and edited it to keep the meaning of my post. My intended point. I'm glad we have a choice of testing labs. Everyone can go where it works best for them.

I was talking about the results. Wherever they came from. Maybe it hit home for me because I own decendents of Gene's bull. The dots connected; and I saw the bigger picture.

If the errors had not been corrected, parental verification of Caitlyn would have been jepardized, and her heifer calf's heritage could have been questioned. Many others would have found themselves in this situation. Just from one bull.

If this case has been repeated and there were other incorrect genotypes made during this time period (before recalibration of equip) are there others out there? Shouldn't this be looked into? I hope someone has. If this wasn't an isolated case there are more incorrect reports out there. With so many breeders working toward fully genotyped, parentage confirmed herds this will become an issue for many. (Just as it would have for me if Gene had not discovered the errors on Brenn's report and corrected them.)

It is my opinion that this should be looked into. Not because of any particular lab or person but because of the importance of
correct error-free genotyping to the Dexter Breed. The lab should remedy the situation that has been brought to their attention. The assoc. should work towards correcting the genotypes that contain errors. They should notify the members who's test results are in question so they can have their animals retested. Hopefully retesting can still be accomplished from stored dna samples of deceased animals.

[Olga]

I hope I'm not taking this thread off topic (the admin herself) but the problem that comes to my mind is the increased workload on the registrar. This may be one of the reasons why it was decided not to require genotyping for females at this time. It appears to be hard to get the dots connected for things to be changed even in the online pedigree. Here are some issues that I've ran into: I've requested three times, probably, to have the records for my animals updated: Sioux and Erin are long dead and Asinus Acres San Ju S is "missing in action" for about 3 years. At the AGM P.J. Breedlove brought up this issue: what to do about animals who'd been sold but had never transferred into the new owner's name? Pam Malcuit responded by pointing out that this problem can be avoided by sellers paying the transfer fee. Ok, I agree, hind sight is 20/20. But what should we do about the "mistakes" of the past? Will the never-transferred animals always appear to be in our herd?
Another issue is that of pictures in the online pedigree. At this point only the registrar has the power to upload pictures. I asked about this change at the AGM and the response was that it was done due to security risk: anyone could go in and change anyone else's pictures. What I want to know: was this a preemptive strike? has anyone in the history of the ADCA online pedigree ever maliciously changed someone else's pictures or uploaded inappropriate pictures? On top of all, ADCA leadership suggested that we should all make sure that the online pedigree pictures are regularly updated, as the animal matured -- a great idea in itself. But I can't even comprehend how much more work that could be for the registrar. Most of us are small holders - wouldn't it be easier for each of us to update and upload our own handful of pics?
In conclusion, it sounds to me that in some cases ADCA leadership is making it more difficult on themselves than it ought to be.

[midhilldexters]

Hi Olga,
It's not the registrar that deals with the pics it's the web master. I would also prefer to handle my pics myself and didn't like that change. Not sure what "security" could be breached other than some idiot changing a pic they shouldn't, I've never known it to happen not to say it wouldn't but...

Re animals sold and not transferred, There used to be a way that they were put down as " inactive" maybe that's still an option, the deceased option should also work. That way if you notify as deceased, then the new owner shouldn't be able to register calves and would be forced then to transfer it. Pain in your thingy so better to pay for the transfers and be done with it.

Carol K

[lakeportfarms]

I don't mean to hijack your hijacked thread Olga, but I agree on the photos and also raise the question about updating the ability and security of posting photos in the pedigree.  The pedigree program the ADCA uses seems to have a lot of limitations.  Why couldn't it be modified to allow the login of multiple users with unique passwords for photo uploads only?  It could be modified to "lock" the critical information like chondro/pha/polled from user modification, there are many examples of this type of ability all throughout the internet.  It would be nice for the pedigree "tree" to indicate if a photo was posted without having to actually click on the name and go to the "home" page of the animal as another improvement.  No A2 status, which would be nice to add as another field since it's being tested by more and more people.  There are probably some other things that could be incorporated that make it easier to navigate and use.  Since we now have a dedicated webmaster, perhaps he should contact the company that developed the pedigree program to see what could be changed and how easily and at what cost it could be accomplished, rather than putting further limitations on the use of it and increasing his own and/or the registrar's workload.  I say that because if either of their workloads increase, then it's going to increase the workload of their spouse, since they're married and all!   In all seriousness, though I understand the thought of why it was done and I wish Delaney family nothing but the best, life sometimes throws curves at families that could disrupt things.  Hopefully there are some backups just in case.

Sometimes investment made in systems and processes can result in long term savings along with better accuracy and efficiency.  Time spent doing repetitive tasks can instead be better spent insuring accuracy.  I know when my workload gets too high I'm much more prone to make mistakes!  For me, though Gus Cothran's lab seems to be making strides to improve their customer service, until they match the entry process of a UCDavis or Legacy test request and payment, they will continue to bleed off customers to these two alternatives who have put more effort into adapting to new technologies.  It would be nice if the ADCA could incorporate some of the same types of improvements. 

[indexters]

As the originator, I am happy to have this thread hijacked. And I couldn't agree more with the hijackers. The online pedigree pages of the ADCA are nice but could definitely use some improvement, in my opinion. I am not sure what security risk there would be, and if someone accidentally or maliciously changed a photo, well the owner only has to change it back. I know not perfect, but unless it became an issue, I am not sure we would need to worry preemptively.

Also, I agree that there needs to be more information able to be loaded onto the page. I am not a webmaster, so not sure the limitations to our site. But why not have options. A2 should definitely be on there (anything really that the lab tests for should have a line on the pedigree). And we are each members so automatically have a unique 'login number', use that to track who is making what changes. Lastly, it would be nice to have a note section on the pedigree (especially helpful to any breeders or buyers). I am thinking a place of limited characters where you could say color genes or A2ness or temperment or height, you get the idea. Just thinking it would be nice if the pedigree page would work with and for us and not just a tree, but one with info.