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Post by carragheendexters on Nov 15, 2013 22:45:10 GMT -5
Hi Donna, this probably needs its own thread and I didn't want to hijack Carol's ethics post.
You may want to reconsider castrating your bull calves by cutting at this time of the year, the chances of ending up having problems is increased in the warmer months than if you use a ring.
We have had calves castrated both ways, putting a ring on and getting the vet out to cut under sedation and local anaesthetic.
The ring method is just so much kinder and more humane. Cutting can get pretty ugly during the recovery, and their recovery takes so long compared to a ring. BTW, when the vet injects the local into the scrotum and into the testicles it certainly isn't a picnic for the calf.
At this time of year with all the flies about it can easily get fly blown, and with the recent rain the fly numbers will increase, blow flies love this time of year and a bit of rain gets them swarming. The swelling can get pretty horrendous, needs lots of hosing to try and help with that, and it is very painful for the calf for a while once the pain relief wears off.
If the calf is too well endowed to use a normal Elastrator then a Tri-bander or Callicrate bander will do a Dexter just fine. There is only a short while of discomfort and then they are back to normal.
Our preference for castration is to do them at 1-2 weeks of age, or to leave them and do them at 6 months of age, at both of these ages there is very little affect on them, they just walk away as if nothing has happened.
I am surprised that the vet didn't recommend against cutting at this time of year, most vet's wouldn't do it and would recommend a ring.
regards Louise
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Post by karenp on Nov 16, 2013 10:38:18 GMT -5
Do you need to have a head gate and crush to restrain a yearling or do you sedated them?
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Post by cddexter on Nov 16, 2013 11:03:50 GMT -5
Oh dear,.... "Over the years, he has castrated many thousands of dairy cows" Gene, maybe this accounts for his high success rate: precious few testicles on cows. c.
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Post by carragheendexters on Nov 16, 2013 18:05:41 GMT -5
Hi Redridge, yes, same as you, that is why we castrate at 2 different ages, depending on the season. We do them at 2 weeks if the season is cool enough and no flies, or leave them to 6 months if it is hot and fly season. We do our lambs the same way, usually at 4-6 weeks, depending on the weather, don't do them if it is raining or predicted rain, and that fits in fine season wise as far as flies go. Our sheep are seasonal breeders.
Genebo, just wondering if you guys have blowflies in your country. There is a season here in Australia for blow flies, usually from Oct/Nov through to Feb/March depending on where you live. We have 2 species over here and they are horrible creatures. The one species only blows live flesh, and the other is supposed to only blow dead flesh (ie carcasses) but will also join in with the other species once the strike is started.
They lay eggs anywhere that has a protein source, which hatch into maggots which start eating away at live flesh, in their thousands. Major drama in Australia for woolly sheep. We have shedding sheep but did have the odd woolly sheep, one wether was struck around his pizzle and tracked right up his side and along his back. Very nasty wounds as they eat deep into the muscle layers. many sheep die even if treated due to overwhelming infection.
Blow flies will blow anything. We have had our Pekin chickens blown around their vents, because of the poop on their feathers, we have had a bull we purchased who had been dehorned just before we received him in the winter, his dehorning wounds were blown in early spring, that was ugly, maggots all down in his sinuses. A friends dog got blown in its long fur. So, here in Australia blow flies are no party.
The good part about blowflies? If an animal dies out in a paddock, it will be gone within a week, only skin and fur/wool, grassy stomach contents, and bones will be left.
If ringing is performed correctly, no testicles are left behind, unless of course the testicle hasn't descended and is still in the abdomen. Ordinary cutting doesn't deal with these testicles either, the animal needs abdominal surgery for that.
As far as rotting scrotums, I have never seen that. Sure, maybe I haven't done that many, we have only probably now done a little over a 100 (calves, lots more sheep), (we have more bull calves born than heifers, we've had about 150-160 calves born now) only ever done 2 by cutting and the rest by rings. BTW the vet had recommended using a ring and not cutting, but this was before the days of Tri-banders and Callicrate banders and the calf had developed too large.
Here in Australia, the scrotum doesn't rot as such but dehydrates and dries up to a flat piece of tissue. Of those we have used rings on we have only had to treat once with antibiotics, the weather turned bad and the paddocks turned to a muddy slush, Both cut calves had to come in daily, for hosing down, and for ab's, their wounds became infected, one because of mud, the other because of dust. Open wounds are more likely to become infected than a ringed calf.
As far as tetanus is concerned, all calves should be vaccinated before castration, but if performed early, this isn't possible. Vaccination at too young an age won't work well, and there isn't time for a good antibody level to develop. You can give anti-toxin which will give adequate cover at the time of castration, we don't, we take the risk. The cut calves have a greater chance of tetanus than a ringed calf, there has to be open flesh wound for the spores to get up into deep tissue where there is no air, and castration wounds are deep and closed off from the air.
Yes, the ring does cut off the blood supply, that is what it is meant to do. To kill the testicles. Same as a Burdizzo, That is how they work, they cut the blood vessels without damaging the skin and scrotum. Also if the blood vessels aren't tied off properly when cutting a calf, or sealed with an emasculator. there is a risk of bleeding to death.
Your vet mustn't use local anaesthetic when castrating, you can't eat the testicles if it has been used. Our vet stressed when he did our 2 calves to dispose of the testicles carefully because of that.
Each country is different, so maybe cutting done by a good vet is the way to go in your country and your area, but here in Australia most farmers nowadays ring , and most vets recommend that method because of less complications.
KarenP, for ringing, we just restrain them in the headbail if they are older, if babies, we have a calf restraint, they get done at the same time as disbudding. We have done polled babies, just with a halter on, my husband holds them still while I do the ringing, I do all the procedures in our house while hubby does the restraining. For cutting, you definitely need a head restraint, and we also used sedation and local anaesthetic. This is another reason vets don't like to cut here in Australia in warmer weather when using sedation, there is too much of a risk of an animal overheating.
regards Louise
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Post by rezzfullacres on Nov 16, 2013 18:07:18 GMT -5
Over the years, he has castrated many thousands of dairy cows, plus almost every 4-H calf within the state, The 4-H has his number and he always castrates 4-H calves for free. He told me that the only steers he's ever had die were banded steers. I offered to buy two bull calves if they could be steered 3 weeks before delivery. The seller had 3 bulls steered for me. None survived. A second try yielded only one survivor. I got him, but by his behavior, I suspected that he had a hidden testicle. He did. I had to parentage verify every calf born here for the next year and a half. Something I would have done anyway, but it would have been a tragedy if one of my calves had been his. Luckily, he didn't sire any calves. I still have his hard, dried scrotum nailed above the barn door, with a single testicle in it. . " done almost every 4-h calf in the state".....This type of claim is at best a boast and at worst a bold faced lie, it is a claim that does not even deserve the time to respond too...As far as a cut steer never dieing on this so called super vet, I highly doubt that claim as well.....if you handle livestock in any quantity you will have losses, that is a very simple fact.... I I have cut calves, banded calves and left calves alone, after 30 years we have settled on the calicrate bander at about 6 to 7 months of age, it allows the calves plenty of time to develop and proper evaluation can take place rather than guessing at a couple of days or weeks.... If you choose to cut, timing is very important, fly activity must be minimal or problems will develop. Cleanliness is a must, sharp cutting tools are a must....We just cut pigs the other day, a nice scalpel is the best investment you can make, buy quality and you will not regret it......
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Post by midhilldexters on Nov 16, 2013 18:41:36 GMT -5
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Post by lakeportfarms on Nov 16, 2013 21:07:55 GMT -5
We've had great success with a Burdizzo if you need to do it during fly season. But it takes an experienced person and a lot of practice.
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Post by carragheendexters on Nov 17, 2013 6:45:27 GMT -5
Hi Genebo, it is done differently over here in Australia, the scrotum is left intact, small incisions are made in the bottom, which allows it to drain. The scrotum or cod as it is called after castration is used here in Aust as an indicator of the finish on a steer. As fat is layed down over the beast, the cod will also lay down fat, a full cod indicates a well finished steer. That is why some buyers do prefer cut steers over ring castrated steers as you can see the finish better with the cod.
Just wondering how your vet controls bleeding then, ours either tie off the blood vessels or use an emasculator to seal the blood vessels first, and then they also pull off the testicles by hand, don't cut them.
Yes, that is a common way the oldtimers castrated lambs, it was commonplace to bite off lamb's testicles. My uncle who was a sheep farmer did his lambs that way. Also the family's tom cats, he would put the cat down a gumboot head first with it's bits sticking out, cut the scrotum then bite off the testicles. I prefer my meat cooked LOL.
regards Louise
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Post by carragheendexters on Nov 17, 2013 6:48:23 GMT -5
Hahahah, Redridge, isn't that the way, if you can't ever do something or work something out, call a kid. They're so smart nowadays. regards Louise
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Post by ssrdex on Nov 17, 2013 11:12:36 GMT -5
Carol K, Thanks for posting that vid...that guy"s a castrating fool!! You can certainly tell how much confidence plays a role when watching him. I do wish he could've gotten a closer shot and maybe slowed down a little. I have only banded a couple of calves and had no problems, but wouldn't be opposed to cutting. It's just something I haven't learned yet.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 17, 2013 15:00:00 GMT -5
Hi Louise The reason the boys are being done surgically is because one is 11mths old and the other is over 2 months old. Banding is not allowed after 6 months and it is highly recommended that after 2 months of age, painkillers are administered before and as a follow up. We went to band the younger guy with a painkiller administered half an hour before hand, as recommended but found one testicle wouldnt stay down without being held. The chance of mis-banding him was too great so we have opted for it to be done surgically. Management of the two boys is definitely required especially with fly season. The op will be done using a local, or enough local to ensure nothing else during the op. We have already stipulated we want two long lasting painkillers and two long lasting antibiotics as follow up injections for both, even though the vet feels only one of each will be required. There is also an antiseptic spray which we can use to keep the flies away from the wound which wont add moisture to the healing wound which the vet will bring with him. We have read, and discussed the pros and cons for both methods and for our boys the surgical path carries less risk and will be more humane and less stressful for them both. "Just because it has always been done, doesnt make it right or correct" Cheers D PS: Link to the Animal Welfare Approved methods for castrating at different ages: www.animalwelfareapproved.org/wp-content/uploads/2010/04/TAFS-9-Beef-castration-2010.pdf
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Post by carragheendexters on Nov 17, 2013 19:40:14 GMT -5
"Just because it has always been done, doesnt make it right or correct" Cheers D Hi Donna, I agree, never a truer statement, that is why most Australian Farmers have changed from the old fashioned ways of cutting calves and biting off lambs testicles to using rings. Just trying to help, the blowflies have been horrendous this last week after the rain. To each his own. regards Louise
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Post by Deleted on Nov 17, 2013 20:12:22 GMT -5
It must be where we are located; not quite inland but not coastal either – that band in the middle.
We don’t have a fly problem at the moment *touch wood*.
But when we went visiting just up the road to Goulburn and then across to Gundaroo, boy we were nearly eaten alive. It was so nice to go home and be able to peacefully sit on the veranda to watch the moos.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 19, 2013 16:30:09 GMT -5
Update on our surgical procedure yesterday.
Vet decided the crush was too restrictive and because the boys were so gentle in their natures, he said the yard was good enough.
He gave twilight aesthetic which he said was only light, but it knocked them both out cold, which made me feel better.
He localised each testicle before making a small, really small incision to remove each. He clamped and cut cords before stitching them closed.
He left the small incision open for drainage and then each boy was sprayed down with pink / purple cholormide from navel to under the tail and inside both legs.
They had a painkiller, then a dose of antibiotics and vaccination for tetanus.
He recommended that the little bloke has a third follow up vaccination as the one he was given was only a small amount due to his young age. The risk of tetanus outweighed the risks associated with vaccination of a young calf which is why he was given it.
The vet left a painkiller with antibiotics for each as a follow up and a large antiseptic/fly repellent spray.
Both boys took hours to come around and out of the groggy state. The little man had ‘slurpies’ and comfort from mum and the older man stuffed himself silly on triple mix followed by loads of water – which the vet said would happen due to the twilight aesthetic.
This morning both boys were up and walking ………OK………. Little man was having breakfast from mum and the older boy had head down, grazing away.
We sprayed more cholormide on each from navel and down both legs and was surprised to see no incision marks – the skin had come together as the vet had explained.
I asked the vet did he do many surgical castrations and he commented that he is doing more and more. He went on to tell us a dairy farm (which we didn’t know was in the area) stopped a decade of banding a few years back after their first and only incident arising from banding.
They had called him out because a steer wasn’t looking too well with swelling. After examination the vet said the band had caught the top of one of the testicles and it was rotting causing inflammation.
He removed it and suggested he check the other 9 steers (which had resulted from sexed sperm. Very small number considering the number of calves which were dropped apparently.)
From the 9 steers he said he removed 16 testicles.
The owners were horrified. They had been banding for years without incident until this one steer had swelling. They hadn’t realised that their supposed steers over the years may not have been true steers.
So they have their bull calves surgically castrated now.
Our conversation then went onto scenarios of steers running with open cows and wondering how many calves had been dropped to steers instead of the resident bulls and so on.
At least we could come back with that not happening with the Dexters because they are DNAed and parent verified for registration.
Cheers D
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Post by carragheendexters on Nov 19, 2013 22:42:15 GMT -5
Hi Donna, steers with retained testicles are called stags. You know that they are not steers because they grow up to look just like a bull and act like a bull. Stags are sometimes used as teasers in herds that mainly use AI, as they are normally infertile.
This sounds like it may be a tall tale that the vet was telling you, I can't imagine a dairy farmer not recognising a stag, they would know what a bull looked like and behaved like, and they would also know what a stag was.
regards Louise
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