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Post by ian on Dec 21, 2013 18:36:55 GMT -5
Hi All
I thought a new thread was needed to discuss the traits to look for when selecting a herd sire, both good and bad. I feel that there are a lot of breeders, buyers and sellers out there that need this information. If you have information you wish to post, please post pictures to support your thoughts. All pictures and thoughts shall be open to discussion, so I suggest that bull names not be used. This is not a thread about Dexter purity or polling so please refrain from posting on those subjects, they have been discussed elsewhere.
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Post by kansasdexters on Dec 21, 2013 20:57:06 GMT -5
We believe in and follow, Kit Pharo's approach: 1. We manage the natural resources placed under our control in a sustainable manner.
2. Cows are run in a real-world environment, as tough as or tougher than the environment most commercial cows are run in.
3. We let the environment sort out the good ones, and we show absolutely no sympathy for open, late, or dry cows.
4. We don't make an excuse for a cow. A cow must produce and wean a calf every year to remain in the herd.
5. By limiting feed resources we try to apply sufficient pressure on the cow herd to force out the unadapted and infertile animals – at least 10 percent each year.
6. In addition to growth and performance, we select for some other vital economic traits like fertility, calving ease, moderate cow size, fleshing ability, structural correctness, disposition, and longevity.
7. Replacement heifers are developed on a low-cost, forage based diet with minimum supplements. We only want the most efficient and most adapted heifers to make it into the cow herd.
8. A bull calf must be born unassisted, from a fault-free cow that has never missed, to make it as a herd sire prospect.
We produced 30 calves this year, 19 heifers and 11 bulls calves. Only one bull calf was kept intact, and all the rest were castrated. The one that was kept, is the 11th calf born to a 12-year old cow that has never missed a year calving and that has produced vigorous, beautiful calves since she was 2-years old. She still has an excellent udder, well attached, good teat placement and teat size, and four working quarters. She has a great temperament, as do her calves. She is a well-qualified bull mother. This is what we consider a herd sire prospect, a worthy bull calf with a lot of promise, backed up by an exceptional dam and sire.
Patti
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zephyrhillsusan
member
Caught Dexteritis in Dec. 2009. Member of this forum since Oct. 2013.
Posts: 1,502
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Post by zephyrhillsusan on Dec 21, 2013 21:10:07 GMT -5
That is extremely helpful, Patti! Especially number 8 and your description of the cow that makes it as a bull mother. The unassisted birth makes sense, too. But I'm glad I'm not a cow in your herd! I'm afraid I'd have been culled! I do see that I need to toughen up! I had previously asked a question about culling, and this is very helpful. Grr! My iPad keeps auto-correcting a bull mother to Abdullah mother!
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Post by kansasdexters on Dec 21, 2013 21:54:32 GMT -5
Susan,
Here are the four "O's" of culling that we use:
1. Open - our cows have three breeding opportunities to get bred back each year. If they don't get pregnant after three attempts, they are culled. 2. Ornery - any animal that exhibits an overly aggressive behavior towards people, or any animal that is very difficult to handle, is culled from the herd. No exceptions. 3. Old - a cow over 14 years old has a much greater risk for fertility and health issues than her younger herd mates. We cull our older cows (12 to 14 years old) after weaning off their last calf and allowing them to go through a grazing season to be properly finished. They are in very good body condition, open, and healthy when we process them for beef. 4. Oddball - this is a cow that does not get bred in time to calve within our desired calving interval, or one that has some undesirable oddity or injury, or one that doesn't meet our requirements for conformation and performance.
Patti
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Post by cddexter on Dec 22, 2013 13:32:31 GMT -5
Ian, this definition from the DCS might be helpful. Patti breeds for top quality functional animals. Not everyone else does. Here's a basic 'should' list, and I mean BASIC. At least it's a start for those who truly don't know and don't know where to go to find out.
The DCS list has four options: 1: ideal/desirable; 2: acceptable for showing and registration; 3: undesirable; 4: Not recommended for registration.
BULL GUIDELINES
Feature: White markings 1. none 2. small amount of white on organs of generation; white hairs in switch of tail; a few white hairs in coat 3. white pigment on underline behind the navel; white flecking of hair over all or part of body 4. patches of white pigment anywhere other than on the underline behind the navel
Feature: Horns 1. breed standard 2. polled animals are accepted if from one of the sources of poling recognised by the assn., or if pedigree is supported by dna certificate 3: blank 4. blank
Feature: Hip height at three years 1. 40 - 44 inches 2. 38 - 46 inches 3. under 38 inches or over 48 inches 4. irrelevant at time of registration
Feature: Testicles/teats 1. breed standard 2. blank 3. fewer than four teats, teats markedly uneven 4. more than four teats, absence or atrophy of testicle, scrotal hernia
Feature: Legs and feet, gait 1. breed standard 2. blank 3. overgrown feet, low at leel, slightly clicking fetlocks, uneven toes 4. twisted fetlocks, feet turning in or out, badly clicking fetlocks, throwing legs sideways when walking, splayed gait
Feature: Head/body 1. breed standard 2. blank 3. narrow head, poor topline, shallow body, narrow rump, high tail setting, low tail setting, too short in body 4.: overshot jaw, undershot jaw, wry tail
COW GUIDELINES
Feature: White markings: ditto bulls
Feature: Horns: ditto bulls
Feature: Hip height at three years 1. 38 - 42 inches 2. 36 - 43 inches 3. under 36 inches or over 43 inches 4. irrelevant at time of registration
Feature: Udder/teats 1. breed standard 2. rudimentary extra teats 3. blind quarters, c=except when caused by mastitis, bottle teats, misshapen/uneven udder 4. fused teats, either with other main teats or with extra teats
Feature: Legs and feet 1. breed standard 2. slight click in fetlocks, provided this is not accompanied by twisted fetlocks or twisted feet 3. overgrown feet, low at heel, severly clicking fetlocks, twisted fetlocks, feet turning in or out 4. blank
Feature: Head/body 1. breed standard 2. blank 3. overshot jaw, undershot jaw, extremes of narrow head, poor top line, shallow body, narrow rump, wry tail, high tail setting, low tail setting, too short in body
We've all seen examples of some of the worst of these traits: high tail head, toe in or out, splayed gait, too small stature (often touted as special and thus worth more money), and the perennial issue: flat feet (low heels). Plus, there are myriad other things to look for too: testicle hang, sheath attachment, muzzle width, length, winged shoulders, width at top of shoulder, separation to pin distance, etc., etc.
cheers, c.
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Post by djdewetsa on Dec 24, 2013 9:31:52 GMT -5
Why are cows or bulls discriminated against if they are higher? Doesnt breeding or stud goes about the performance of the cow or bull? Say a cow is over the height limit but she is the most beautiful and she gives every year a good calf and she has plenty of milk - it would be sad to cull a cow like that because she is over the height limit. Dexter breeders uses height but how can cows that is positive for the chondro gene be allowed as their calves or offspring that is negative from a negative bull be much higher. Height can never be a reason to disallow to be stud otherwise all chondro animals should also be disallowed. Strange it seem that no one understand this? Here we also have people using bulls that should have been culled. Im a bit more strict in my selection as I see you guys are as well.
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Post by djdewetsa on Dec 24, 2013 9:35:50 GMT -5
Why dont Dexter breeders breed smaller Dexters without the chrono gene? Is it because it takes much longer? You will never get uniformly in height by using chrono gene animals as the animals that you get that is negative is more in height. What do you guys think? Cheers Danie
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Post by cddexter on Dec 26, 2013 14:57:18 GMT -5
Danie, you've run into one of the main stumbling blocks with chondro. There are a lot of people who just don't get it: one damaged gene suppresses growth by 4 to 7 inches. That demands the non-chondro offspring will be 'too tall'. Rather like buying size 4 pants and then expecting a size 8 person to fit in them. it would be nice if finally all the Dexter assns. acknowledged this, and picked one type (either carrier or non), set recommended heights, and then said the 'other' type scale could be xxx inches different. Hope I live long enough to see this come into being. thanss for your post. cheers, cd
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Post by lakeportfarms on Dec 26, 2013 15:25:26 GMT -5
Carol, I agree completely with your thought that the heights should be based on the carrier/non-carrier status of the animal. I suppose that could come into play if there was a requirement for testing for the gene, and using PV to obtain obligate status for non-carriers. Danie, we like the disparity in heights. And see for yourself the results of a chondro cow raising a non-chondro steer. She is 4 years old and her steer behind her is two years old. He weaned at 7 months, had a hanging weight of 460 lbs. at 26 months, and I bet his mother doesn't weigh much more than 550-600 lbs. though we haven't weighed her. At the time the photo was taken around October, she had just weaned her 8 month old bull and she's due to calve in the next month or so. She eats far less than our non-carrier cows who wean steers of similar size as the one she produced. This lack of consistency may not work for somebody supplying steers to the sale barn for market, but for us and the direct market to end consumers it has been working quite well. Both mother and steer are/were entirely grass and hay fed and finished. No grain.
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Post by legendrockranch on Dec 26, 2013 18:42:17 GMT -5
Genebo, the link you supplied suggested that people with Laron syndrome are less likely to have cancer or diabetes and live longer. How do you equate that with a Dexter that carries Chondro? A hidden benefit?
What is not said in the article are other symptoms of Laron syndrome:
“Laron syndrome is a disorder chiefly characterized by marked short stature. Signs and symptoms in the newborn period typically include low blood sugar (hypoglycemia) and having an unusually small penis (micropenis). Affected children have slow and disproportionate growth, delayed motor development due to decreased muscle mass, and delayed puberty. Other signs and symptoms include distinctive facial features (protruding and high forehead, shallow eye sockets, underdeveloped nasal bridge and small chin); delayed teething; a high-pitched voice; thin bones and skin; and decreased sweating (hypohidrosis). It is often caused by mutations in the GHR gene and is inherited in an autosomal recessive manner. Treatment focuses on improving growth and includes injections of insulin-like growth factor 1 (IGF-1) and a diet with adequate calories.”
Please don’t try to compare apples and oranges together.
Barb
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Post by cddexter on Dec 27, 2013 20:20:50 GMT -5
Hopefully Dexter breeders know to select for more than just one trait. Perhaps that's what separates the breeders from owners? There's more to Dexters than dwarfism and horns.
cheers c.
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zephyrhillsusan
member
Caught Dexteritis in Dec. 2009. Member of this forum since Oct. 2013.
Posts: 1,502
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Post by zephyrhillsusan on Dec 27, 2013 21:15:48 GMT -5
Can someone who knows more about it than me please explain about a backward curve to the scrotum in relation to udders? That was very interesting to me when I read it.
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Post by cddexter on Dec 28, 2013 1:07:14 GMT -5
susan, it is considered that the suspensory ligament in a cow's udder equates to the suspensory ligament in the scrotum. So, if one looks at the scrotum, there should be a clear division between the two testes, and the more continuous the division, the better the udder suspension. If you go around looking at balls (haha here), you'll soon see that some have a clear line from the front right around the bottom and up to the top of the sac. In others you can hardly see any division at all. And still others will have a partial division, especially lacking on the upper part of the rear of the sac. If you can imagine an udder with poor rear suspension, you are probably seeing inheritance from a bull with the latter type of scrotum. The better the ligament, the more likely the scrotum will be pulled back slightly, so it hangs not straight down but curls a bit to the rear. THAT is the hang you should be looking for. Allowing for heat (which causes the scrotum to relax and get the testes out in the air to cool off) you really want a high, tight set with good ligaments.
got it? cheers, c.
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Post by djdewetsa on Dec 28, 2013 3:24:45 GMT -5
Hi had a look at discovermagazine.com/2013/april/19-double-edged-genes link. he he he. Sorry guys there is nothing positive about chondro except maybe using it as circus animals or in petting zoo. However to breed with animals that have faults with their genes are not ethical breeding no matter what excuse you use. However I dont want to strat the 100 year war again.
Here is SA it seems the colour also plays a part in the quality of the bulls - currently quality black bulls outway the red ones by far. Strange? Maybe is the bloodlines that came here. The ones with the black genes were better when they landed? Do you experience it also?
Also I see alot of pictures of bulls in USA - everyone claiming that they are true bloodlines but the colours , polled, ears, head exc caracters begs to differ. Seems maybe outcrossed with Angus (lowline) or other? (PS that is how all breeds started)
Spoke also with the Aussie guys that perfected the bulldog gene test years ago. Asked them if the Dexter was unique or was it that it was a Kerry cattle that had the chondro gene and then thought to be something on its own. Taken to uk and then bred with other cattle like North Devon/Redruby (also sources from uk) and angus. According to them its so. Has someone else do the testing as well?
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Post by ian on Dec 28, 2013 16:07:33 GMT -5
Hi everyone
Can we please not bring Chondro into this thread it has been talked about before in other threads.
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