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Post by kansasdexters on Oct 22, 2014 8:32:37 GMT -5
People take time to do what is important to them. If keeping accurate and current records are important to a Breeder, then it gets done in a timely manner. Parentage qualification should be done prior to the registration of each calf. That way, a copy of the lab report showing "Sire and Dam Qualify" can be submitted with the registration application. This actually saves time and effort for both the Registrar and the Breeder, and it assures that the registration information is accurate as submitted. A stitch in time, saves nine.
Patti
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Post by lakeportfarms on Oct 22, 2014 9:58:52 GMT -5
Our records are accurate Patti, they just haven't been sent to Jill yet. Prior to the Legacy bundling a couple of years ago, the genotyping and all of the other testing was a pretty expensive proposition. With the bundling from Legacy it became much more affordable, the ADCA and Texas followed suit with bundling thanks to competition. A win for the owners and the Dexter breed. I almost wish I had procrastinated with our PHA and chondro testing several years ago, since just for those two tests on many of our cows I spent nearly as much as what I can get the entire package today while adding genotyping and color to the mix.
I'll say it once again, I wish the ADCA would recognize the registrations carrying complete testing with some type of special designation, or provide a "limited" registration to those who are not doing genotyping and testing. That would raise the awareness and encourage more breeders to incur the expense of genotyping and testing.
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Post by legendrockranch on Oct 22, 2014 10:07:31 GMT -5
Parentage qualification should be done prior to the registration of each calf. That way, a copy of the lab report showing "Sire and Dam Qualify" can be submitted with the registration application. Patti Well said Patti, exactly what should be done. I'm sorry if I sounded gruff but quite honestly I am tired of seeing this happen. Believe me this is NOT something that has just happened. This is just being brought to the fore front because more people are PV and finding there are errors. If the ADCA doesn't want to make PV mandatory, than we as breeders have to step up to the plate and do it ourselves. Barb Edited to put in correct format. |
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Post by midhilldexters on Oct 22, 2014 10:28:53 GMT -5
Barb, I think the better campaign may be to encourage people to ONLY buy parentage verified animals from breeders. Then watch how many people get their $hit in order. If they can't sell calves they will genotype, or we lose them as breeders. So would it be a big loss? Pedigrees from years ago we can only assume are correct, pedigrees from here on out should be.
Carol K
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zephyrhillsusan
member
Caught Dexteritis in Dec. 2009. Member of this forum since Oct. 2013.
Posts: 1,502 
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Post by zephyrhillsusan on Oct 22, 2014 15:22:40 GMT -5
You're right, Donna, it definitely makes one wonder about the breeder. And as Carol K said, how many other times has this happened to other people?
I should clarify that when I said that accidents happen, I am absolutely NOT defending this happening on a repeated basis. It was more of a musing on the subject of "Well, how can these things happen?" It was definitely NOT an excuse, and I hope it didn't sound like it. At the first AGM we went to, the vet who spoke said, "If your ox falls into the ditch every Sunday, either get a new ox or fill in the ditch." That is spot on! If this keeps happening, a breeder is doing something WRONG and needs to fix it! I they don't, then they have to expect their honesty to be questioned.
Six months is not a timely fix. If I were you I would write the breeder a detailed letter recapping the events and the (approximate) dates of all your previous communication with the breeder. I would send it by Registered Mail with Return Receipt so you KNOW it is received. I would specify in the letter that you expect to hear back in writing what the breeder is doing about the situation by such-and-such a date. Let the breeder know that if by that date you have not heard back to your satisfaction that you will be forwarding this letter to the ADCA. Then do it.
Absolutely no bad feelings, whatsoever! My heart goes out to you in this situation, and much of why I came out so adamantly for PV is what I've learned from your experience. I hope everyone else is clear that I do not blame you one single bit for being very upset! I'm upset for you!
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zephyrhillsusan
member
Caught Dexteritis in Dec. 2009. Member of this forum since Oct. 2013.
Posts: 1,502
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Post by zephyrhillsusan on Oct 22, 2014 15:56:20 GMT -5
RedRidge, I'm right in there with you. I didn't understand that genotypes and PV were totally separate issues. Or that the levels of PV mean very different things. I have been coming to realize that by hearing stories like LaDena's and Donna's, and it was cemented when I called UCD to clarify Gene's comments on sire qualification. kansasdexters, I think maybe the title of that report is somewhat misleading to those of us who didn't know better. I'm not blaming VGL or suggesting they use another form, but when genetic markers and PV are on the same form, it could lead to confusion. And thank you for pointing out that all 3 genotypes must be in the same database to get a calf "Sire and Dam Qualified." Otherwise you can have one parent PV'd at one lab and another parent PV'd at the other lab, but you can't have "Sire and Dam Qualification." That's also why, once the nice VGL person helped me find it, I posted the "Info" link about parentage verification so that hopefully other newbies will be able to understand it. midhilldexters, for me it was not understanding the process. I hear lakeportfarms on being busy. I really like Patti's suggestion to do it prior to registering the calf, and I've started doing it that way. Jill has been very patient and helpful as I've gone through the learning process, but I know I've made extra work for her in my ignorance. I'm betting, though, that some people don't want the ADCA to have their genotype on file. They're happy to have it at VGL where only they can access it, but they don't want anyone else seeing it. Maybe afraid that it will be shared or given out? legendrockranch I feel so strongly about this! We have to do it ourselves, even just starting today with the ones we already have, even if we can't go back and do it retroactively. Then at least everything going forward will be done. AND as Carol K said: I thought I was opening a can of worms when I said that. Glad you like to eat worms, too, midhilldexters!  And not to hijack this thread completely, ladena, please let us know how you get on.
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Post by ladena on Oct 22, 2014 16:04:01 GMT -5
I got the final report and finally got a match for the other cow. Here's what I started with.
Lone Star Patsy (Circle H's Frederick x Lone Star Shania)
Lone Star Madonna (Circle H's Frederick x SB Caitlain)
The corrected pedigrees:
Lone Star Patsy (Lone Star Lo Rider x Lone Star Dixie)
Lone Star Madonna (Lone Star Brutus x SB Caitlain)
Fortunately for me the suspected bulls had genotypes on file and they were able to eventually make a match.
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Post by RedRidge on Oct 22, 2014 16:27:10 GMT -5
I know I don't have all the pieces to this story, but is it just me or should we be questioning the parentage of the other two Line Star cows supposedly sired by Frederick?
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Post by ladena on Oct 22, 2014 17:27:27 GMT -5
Sheri, the cow Lone Star Dolly we bought at the same time we bought Patsy and Madonna. She was supposed to be bred but never calved and would never settle so we beefed her. More than likely she was not by Frederick but she wasn't out of Dixie. I'm not sure who her dam was but I've asked to have her removed as progeny of Dixie.
As to the other cow, Lone Star Dottie, I don't know.
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dexterlady
member
Wife, mother of two daughters and five grand children
Posts: 647
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Post by dexterlady on Oct 22, 2014 17:38:20 GMT -5
Carol, need to correct one of your statements....This breeder has only done this to ME , once, but this is the third time she has had this happen, to two other people....Yes I have had this same incident happen to me three times , but the other two were from two other breeders...And they have been corrected now....This last one hasn't been yet....Thank you.....Hope everyone understands....Donna J
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Post by midhilldexters on Oct 22, 2014 18:17:42 GMT -5
I gotcha Donna, sorry shouldn't have assumed it was the same breeder. In all honesty the fact that it happened to you 3 times, even by different breeders, is beyond the odds though, and maybe more scary that it's more than one breeder. Hang in there and fingers crossed they come up with the right sire and make this right for you.
Carol K
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zephyrhillsusan
member
Caught Dexteritis in Dec. 2009. Member of this forum since Oct. 2013.
Posts: 1,502
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Post by zephyrhillsusan on Oct 22, 2014 21:21:36 GMT -5
Those are quite some changes in their pedigrees. I just looked, and Patsy's online pedigree lists Brutus as the sire. I guess it got corrected to the presumed one when it wasn't Frederick, but was actually a third bull, Lo Rider? You must feel absolutely dizzy, but I'm glad you got it sorted out!
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Post by ladena on Oct 23, 2014 9:01:22 GMT -5
Susan, I checked this morning and it hasn't been corrected yet. You are correct, it was changed to Brutus when he was the presumed sire but it turned out to be Lo Rider. I'm just thankful that I didn't run out of sires with genotypes.
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Post by cddexter on Oct 23, 2014 11:25:03 GMT -5
So, to take this back in time, and forward:
given that humans created 'breeds' in the first place, making them an artificial entity, and
given that fences are not always what they should be, and
given that bulls and cows will act according to their natures, and
given than most people are honest and have good intentions and
given that there will always be the sociopaths and lazy and less passionate among us, and
given that when herd books were 'closed' yesterday one cow was a legitmate foundation member of the breed but tomorrow her full sister is an upgrade, and
given that when one is selecting for 10 or 15 genes (or just one or two) among millions which are common to ALL cattle, and often all species, and
given that it statisically takes three generations in the US for most breed assns to accept an upgrade as equal to those without upgrading, OR five generations from the cross in scientific terms, OR 27 generations for there to be zero statistical possibilities of any of the upgrade genes remaining (even all those common ones), and
given that the advent of genetic testing is very recent, and is growing by leaps and bounds...,
We have a variety of versions of purity, from rabid to reasonable. One generation? 10? 25? Nothing qualifies unless it goes back to foundation stock (although there has been some mention elsewhere about lack of purity in foundation stock--go figure that one)
where do we draw the line? The assns are bound by rules, and it is common to 'grandfather in' animals alive prior to creating new rules. This isn't bad science, it's a way to protect the innocent, and to stop witch hunts (at least with most people, although we do have our exceptions...).
And one last given: it has to be an exceptional person who will act altruistically instead of putting their own agendas and desires ahead of what's best for the breed.
I think genotyping will have to be a bottom up process, with the market dictating the change. Even tho' the BoD was supposed to lead the way, has anyone counted how many Directors and Officers have genotyped and verified their herds?
c.
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Post by kansasdexters on Oct 23, 2014 16:58:05 GMT -5
Since the ADCA Regional Directors and Officers have not consistently done parentage qualification, don't expect any change to be made in the ADCA registration requirements, anytime soon. Even though anyone that has had to go through the process of correcting someone else's mistakes knows firsthand how important it is to do parentage qualification, it still remains an option for the registration of heifers and cows, and only the sire genotype is required to "Sire Qualify" bull calves (even though we know that this is not adequate).
Solution: Do the right thing anyway, please parentage qualify every calf that you register as breeding stock (heifers and bulls). Do it for the next generation of Dexter breeders, do it for the future success of this wonderful breed, do it because you care and you want to make a positive difference in the success of others and yourself. Do it because it is the right thing to do, no excuses, no procrastination, no problems.
Patti
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