zephyrhillsusan
member
Caught Dexteritis in Dec. 2009. Member of this forum since Oct. 2013.
Posts: 1,502 
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Post by zephyrhillsusan on Oct 23, 2014 18:27:44 GMT -5
Hear! Hear!
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Post by legendrockranch on Oct 23, 2014 18:45:20 GMT -5
Solution: Do the right thing anyway, please parentage qualify every calf that you register as breeding stock (heifers and bulls). Do it for the next generation of Dexter breeders, do it for the future success of this wonderful breed, do it because you care and you want to make a positive difference in the success of others and yourself. Do it because it is the right thing to do, no excuses, no procrastination, no problems. Patti Well said Patti Susan that was exactly what I was going to say, you beat me to it  Barb |
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Post by ladena on Oct 23, 2014 18:56:29 GMT -5
Yes, well said, Patti!
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Post by RedRidge on Oct 23, 2014 20:44:02 GMT -5
Yes well said. .. But. .. I hate to be the bearer of bad tidings, but I suspect most really have no clue "what the right thing is".
There is way too much confusion and no consistency among long term breeders that is (or in many cases is not) being passed along to new owners.
New owners don't know the questions to ask and if sellers don't volunteer more information and guidance then too many people are oblivious. I know when I first bought my first Dexters I just assumed that, like any other registered animal I had purchased, it was simply a matter of a transfer of registration. And... Thanks to the first breeder I ever bought a dexter from... That transfer was done by her as part of the purchase.
ADCA registration papers are, in this party of the country, the single piece of paper that matters to most. The genetic testing is just "an extra bonus". And I had Dexters for a year before I even knew the PDCA existed.
We can come up with "new owner info packets" and all kinds of other brainstorms, but until it's promoted by the ADCA it will not reach the people it needs to reach.
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Post by kansasdexters on Oct 23, 2014 21:37:37 GMT -5
Sheri,
In the past, before social media existed, I would have agreed with you. Not so anymore. This thread has been viewed over 1,000 times in the course of a few days. The power to accomplish this task is in every person that has read this thread. As of today, there are 1,095 "Sire and Dam Qualify" registered Dexters in the ADCA herd book. This issue is a snowball that grows larger and larger every day. It is a grassroots effort and it is gaining momentum.
When we first started our herd, in December 2004, very little genetic testing was done on Dexter cattle. We purchased our first Dexter bull in May 2005, his name was O'Bannon's Brogan. We drove from Topeka, KS to Cincinnati, Ohio to get this yearling bull. That Dexter breeder owned Glencara Finerty and Brogan was recorded as being sired by Glencara Finerty. Four years later, we genotyped O'Bannon's Brogan and had his genotype compared to his sire of record (as an AI bull, Glencara Finerty's genotype was already "on file" with the ADCA). Guess what? The report came back as "Sire Excluded" and it took us 4 months to properly document the correct sire, Tama Quasar. We then had to pay the ADCA to re-issue 24 pedigree certificates for the registered offspring of O'Bannon's Brogan. We had to contact every person that we'd sold registered Dexter cattle to and make sure that they had the corrected pedigree certificates. We had to pay for re-genotyping Glencara Finerty, and two of his daughters that were half-sisters to O'Bannon's Brogan (they all shared the same dam).
So, any breeder that has experienced what I have experienced, concerning the validity of the ADCA registrations, will either repeat history (and have to spend a lot of time, money, and aggravation to fix other people's mistakes) or learn from history (and choose to parentage qualify all of their registered breeding stock). Yeah, it's really that simple. Do it right the first time, or suffer through the consequences.
Patti
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Post by RedRidge on Oct 24, 2014 6:53:45 GMT -5
I believe you over estimate the power of this thread. Dozens of those views are mine alone, as I've been following it closely.
I hope you are right, but I suspect you are wrong. I know of a dozen people right here in my state who have Dexters and either are not on this forum or don't follow it closely. I believe more needs to be done to educate although I have no solution. Their philosophies tend to be "if it's on the ADCA Web page it's gospel, if it's not it's irrelevant".
I think the lack of testing is simply due to lack of education... it is not an intentional omission on most people's part.
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Post by midhilldexters on Oct 24, 2014 7:34:56 GMT -5
There has to be personal responsibility. If you buy animals of any kind, it is your responsibility to do your research, if you can't find the info you are looking for you have to search it out. Too many Dexter buyers don't care to find out anything. We've had people breeding animals without testing for pha or chondro, just throwing animals together! You can't all be blaming the ADCA all the time you have to take personal responsibility and seek out the information and understand it. I'm not saying that breed societies couldn't make it easier or promote the info more, but you have to do your part. I don't mean to sound harsh, we just have to help ourselves. Heck if there's something someone doesn't understand that's what this forum is for, ask away. I call Dexter friends all the time if there is something I don't get.
Carol K
Carol K
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zephyrhillsusan
member
Caught Dexteritis in Dec. 2009. Member of this forum since Oct. 2013.
Posts: 1,502
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Post by zephyrhillsusan on Oct 24, 2014 10:07:59 GMT -5
I know this thread is about PV, and I'm really happy it's getting such good input, but I want to make sure this sentence gets noticed, too: This is really profound, and it applies to a lot more than genotyping and PV. It can and should inspire us all to be exceptional breeders--putting what's best for the breed ahead of our own agendas and desires. Thank you, cddexter. |
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dexterlady
member
Wife, mother of two daughters and five grand children
Posts: 647
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Post by dexterlady on Oct 24, 2014 11:47:13 GMT -5
Patty and Carol , you are both so right....I do feel like Carol said " the market will dictate the change", even if we can't get it voted in....Supposedly, the "members" voted it down....I don't believe this is the full truth, I am sure a lot on the board didn't want it to pass either....They all knew what a can of worms it would open if it did pass....Well guess what?...That can of worms is already open....
And Patty, I will do it for the next generation, for this wonderful breed and because I do care and I do want to make a positive difference and it is The right thing to do....So until my case it closed, I will keep on waiting for results...I hope it comes sooner rather than later, I'm tired of waiting....And I want to thank you all for your support.....It is greatly appreciated....Donna J.
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Post by kansasdexters on Oct 24, 2014 19:47:36 GMT -5
I truly appreciate the efforts of all the Dexter owner/breeders that are working on parentage qualification in their herd. It helps to start with the oldest animals in each herd. Once their genotypes are in the lab's database, then it is a simple matter to parentage qualify their offspring by sending in the calf's tail hairs, paying the $25 fee for genotyping, and requesting parentage analysis. As more and more Dexters are genotyped, it becomes important to recheck the ADCA Online Pedigree and see if genotypes are available to compare your Dexters with. Reports can be updated by requesting parentage analysis, once the sire and dam are genotyped, and have the offspring "Sire and Dam Qualify" status noted in the ADCA Online Pedigree. There are quite a number of registered Dexters in the ADCA Herd Book that are currently indicated as "Sire Qualifies" or "Genotype on File", and they could be "Sire and Dam Qualify", if the owner requested an updated lab report and submitted the updated report to the ADCA registrar to update the animal's Parentage DNA status. Here is an example of this (you will see that the dam of this animal has been genotyped, but he is only indicated as being "Sire Qualifies"): www.dextercattle.org/pedigreedb/ponyweb.cgi?horse=029109&DNATest=3&Page=92&Sort=0Patti |
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Post by RedRidge on Oct 25, 2014 8:02:12 GMT -5
Thanks Patti. I guess I will round up a bunch of paperwork and get it to Jill now that I understand there is a difference. All of my animals are genotype and "I thought" parentage verified. Need to cross reference I suppose.
Btw... New 2 week old heifer calf is all of the above. Doesn't take long of you know what to look for and ask for. Now to retrace some old assumptions.
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zephyrhillsusan
member
Caught Dexteritis in Dec. 2009. Member of this forum since Oct. 2013.
Posts: 1,502
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Post by zephyrhillsusan on Oct 25, 2014 10:17:33 GMT -5
kansasdexters, I understand how this works for your own Dexters when you own their parents. There's something I'm not getting, though, and I hope you can help me. (I'm not trying to be difficult, I'm genuinely trying to figure this out.) Take a case like the OP's where someone else bred your Dexter and you don't own the parents. To stay with your example, let's say you bought Dot.com, and you want him PVd. You see from the pedigree that his dam Pizazz has her genotype on file now. (First I'll assume all the results are at UCD.) You go to fill out the paperwork on the VGL site and put in Dot.com's name, etc. Then you click on Parent Verification. Up pop 3 choices: "Search my account," "Enter name + VGL Case No." and "New Sire" or "New Dam." (We'll forget the last choice since it doesn't apply here.) Here's where I'm lost. Let's say you bought Dot.com already "Sire qualified." You don't own his sire or dam, so they aren't in your database. But you don't have a VGL case number for them, either, because the breeder sire qualified your bull--and someone else now owns the dam. Am I correct that you have to contact the breeder/owner(s) of both the sire and the dam to get the VGL case numbers to use? Would every breeder do that? Then--because this is a very real possibility--let's say Dot.com was sire qualified at TAMU, since that's where a lot of animals have been done. But suppose Pizazz's owner had her done at UCD. Wouldn't you then be dependent on the good graces of Dot.com's sire to get on the VGL website, open an account, and pay the $2 or whatever to transfer his genotype there so you could get full PV--or mail a copy of the genotype there and pay $10 to do the same? Or alternatively, ask Pizazz's owner to transfer her to TAMU? Is there a simpler solution that I'm missing?
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Post by kansasdexters on Oct 25, 2014 10:40:53 GMT -5
Hi Susan,
Yes,there is a simpler solution. Contact the ADCA Registrar by email and request the VGL Case Number or Texas A&M Accession Number (whichever is relevant). If it turns out that your genotypes are in the UC-Davis database, and the genotype of the Dexter you want to compare with is in the Texas A&M database, then you will either need to ask the owner to help you get the information to the lab that will do the parentage analysis; or you can transfer your animal's genotypes to the lab that has the genotype that you need for completing the parentage analysis on your Dexter.
Several of us that have been genotyping for a number of years already have our animals in the genotype database at both UC-Davis and at Texas A&M. I can provide either a VGL case number or a Texas A&M accession number on any of the Dexters that I have genotyped.
Patti
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Post by midhilldexters on Oct 25, 2014 12:35:01 GMT -5
Susan, it is also a pain when owners of AI sires only have their bulls genotype available at one lab, when breeders use two labs. You would think to make it simple they would pay to have it sent to the second lab. Nope, friend found out this week that's not the case, and she now has to genotype her calf at the lab she didn't want to use, then transfer her calf genotype report to her lab of choice. Long winded. It would be nice if the ADCA would insist it be available at both labs to help breeders out.
Carol K
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Post by kansasdexters on Oct 25, 2014 14:21:55 GMT -5
Carol,
When we started AI breeding with some of the older AI bulls, we had to genotype them (and PHA test, Chondro test) ourselves. Since then, I just order enough straws so that I can have the bull genotyped at the lab that I need the genotype, and I don't worry about it. Also, since I own the sample, it can be tested for whatever additional information I need for my own breeding program.
Patti
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