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Post by kansasdexters on Feb 24, 2014 12:38:55 GMT -5
Genebo,
I didn't say or try to prove that all bulls are mean. The point that I was trying to make is that all bulls with normal hormone levels will behave like bulls, and that their normal behavior may include certain aggressive behaviors in response to certain conditions.
Proper upbringing, regular handling, and training can moderate these behavioral responses. But lack of experience, isolation, and improper handling can exacerbate and amplify these aggressive behaviors. Aggression is a testosterone driven behavior, and healthy breeding bulls (including Dexter bulls) have healthy testosterone levels. I believe it's very important for people to know and understand this, and to manage and care for their bull accordingly.
Because they are without adequate testosterone, castrated Jersey males (and castrated males of other breeds) can be raised and trained as docile oxen, they are not genetically predisposed to be "mean". When you castrate a bull calf, you don't change his genetics.
Patti
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Post by lakeportfarms on Feb 24, 2014 13:32:32 GMT -5
I believe that height plays a role as well. A bull that looks you in the eye is going to be more inclined to take you on than one that you look down at, no matter what the age. Not to mention the cues that they pick up on with your behavior around them. We had a Highland bull that was fairly docile, but one day our daughter wasn't thinking and walked out with some grain to try to lure in some goats that needed a hoof trimming. The bull approached her, she panicked and dropped the scoop and tripped trying to get away. He didn't completely go after her, just nudging her, but it was enough of a cue that several days later Sheril had an empty bucket to get water for the chickens we had in the pasture and he came after her, knocking her down to get to what he thought was grain. He had never done that before. I didn't have any problems with him during or immediately after that, in fact I put the halter on him and led him into the trailer on the way to the butcher and he was a perfect gentleman for me.
The beef is long gone, but his impressive head and horns grace the wall of our good friends' house, and his furry hide is in their den as a reminder whenever we go visit!
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Post by legendrockranch on Feb 24, 2014 21:15:50 GMT -5
So, I still think it is highly likely that there IS a mean gene and full blooded Dexters don't have it. It wasn't good enough to just say Dexters, you had to say full blooded Dexters. Did you really think I was going to let that one slip by me? Maybe the one that has the "mean gene" is the person who made that statement. Barb
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Post by legendrockranch on Feb 24, 2014 22:58:16 GMT -5
Believe me I'm not bent out of shape, I know exactly where you're coming from, just want others to realize it also.. Your statement is at complete odds with all Dexter Breed Associations or Societies. You realize 4 subgroups of Dexters, based on a small group of peoples opinion. "full blooded Dexters" was used because the word Dexters alone was inadequate. There you have it folks edited to change the word thoughts to opinion. Barb
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jamshundred
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Help build the Legacy Dexter Cattle "Forever" Genotype database
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Post by jamshundred on Feb 25, 2014 14:10:31 GMT -5
<<<I believe it's very unwise to draw conclusions based on hearsay and rumors. I've realized over the years that people behaving badly, or acting in ignorance, are usually the cause and the reason for animals behaving badly<<
Then you proceed to a conclusion that has no significant data to prove it.! So let us go back to specifics.
The sire of Lucifer of Knotting has been reported by Carol Davidson to have had a less than desirable disposition. Lucifer of Knotting himself "flipped out" in a holding facility/stock yard in Chicago on the way to the US and was SHOT DEAD. Mr. Chesterley was personally knowledgeable about another son of Lucifer that was "loco". ( Believe me. . . I have seen the "loco" and it is absolutely descriptive of what happens when these bulls lose it). The son of Lucifer that Sandy Thomas imported to breed for red apparently flipped out, treed her and ended up dead for his antics but Mr Chesterley said he had exhibited loco behavior from the beginning. There are a number of instances reported as to bulls from this line "flipping out". My first personal experience with a bull from this line was owned by a man who came to be a good friend. That bull was "loco" but never reached the "flip out" attack stage. I was fearful my friend would one day be killed by him. I would never go in the field where he was kept with the herd, and my friend was amused that I would only walk the fenceline, always dang well aware where the nearest escape/tree/building was when I was near the field in case he breeched the fence. I knew there was something "off" with that bull. Thank goodness he got rid of him. The one which I removed from a farm for the owner was the most frightening animal I have ever encountered. His behavior was "loco" and his eyes were" wild" and "loco" in appearance. He stayed on a trailer for three days until I could get him to a slaughter house. Loco. It was this experience that explained for me clearly and succinctly what Mr. Chesterley described to me. Believe me, I could never have comprehended without having experienced it first hand and I have no patience for those who would argue this doesn't exist in a particular bloodline. Once you have met it face on. . . you will never make excuses ever, ever, again. I will also say that in the females from this line there appears to be what I will call "strong" personalities. .Perhaps even aggressive personalities but not with any intent to harm of which I am aware.
I know two breeders in PA I have talked to personally who were attacked by their Dexter bulls, ( traditional bloodlines). Both bulls were gentle pets. The one man was repairing an outbuilding, had his back to the bull, and the next thing he knew he was in the hospital with multiple serious injuries. Only his wife seeing the attack out a window saved him. The other breeder's bull was also a pet. Never a hint of aggression according to him until the day he was attacked. The owner was not only broken by the attack, he was broken because the animal he loved and nurtured was responsible. I did not seek this information. It came out in other discussions regarding Dexters with these owners.
I personally know other people with bulls from Lucifer lineage. One was raised on my farm. . . . and sold before I had knowledge of the problems in this bloodline, and he has never shown aggression. I will admit to always being careful however when I am on his current owner's farm and I had a young son of his challenge me one day. Although I will now never personally sell a bull from this bloodline. . . . . I have never said every offspring is afflicted but I DO urge caution to anyone who owns a young bull from these bloodlines. I suspect there are signs early on that are missed until the "flip out".
Judy
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Post by midhilldexters on Feb 25, 2014 19:34:52 GMT -5
So could we get the names of these other two bulls?
Carol K
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Post by northshoretrapper on Feb 25, 2014 21:49:58 GMT -5
I was cleaning the cow lean-to this past weekend as we had a nice 4 day break from the frigid temps it was about 40... Anyways i drove the tractor in the pasture to the lean-to to shovel manure into the bucket and my dexter bull was acting real aggressive... "growling" or a real low roaring noise i guess describes it best...and was rubbing his head up and down the tree near me. He was walking towards me throwing his head up ( i had the pitch fork in my hand ) he approched me so i put my hand out for her to smell. He did. and was fine. So, i started to move back towards the tractor (5 foot away) and as soon as i started to back away from him he kinda tossed his head make the growl and move towards me real quick...but then backed off and went to the round bale and started sparring with that. Thought i was gonna have to use my fork for a split second though! He "growls" at my wife all the time, so she says, when she feeds them. He's never done it to me... I'm out with them all the time. I put a post on here awhile ago about him bugling like an elk almost, throwing up dirt over his back with the front hoofs and sparring with a tree...but has never challenged me. The cow or yearling he is with may have been in heat, im not sure. But i am keeping an eye on him for sure now and will be going in the pasture with tool in hand for the time being!!
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Post by kansasdexters on Feb 26, 2014 0:57:22 GMT -5
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 26, 2014 17:43:18 GMT -5
We have 8 boys and each has their own personality and level of ‘docility’.
We have had a couple go through what we call the ‘teen-period’ for up to a couple of months which we dealt with by not putting either ‘him’ or us, in the situation where he would react, trying to ascend the hierarchy and we do this by daily handling, building respect and trust, not forcing it.
So far we have had only two of the five come-of-age boys go through this and those two came out of it as wonderful, respectful animals that are an absolute joy to have.
We also have observed that our moos are stranger-aware.
Even our daughter who comes to the property two to three times a week is considered a semi-stranger by the moos.
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Post by cddexter on Feb 27, 2014 19:56:29 GMT -5
Judy....
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Post by marion on Mar 5, 2014 15:13:59 GMT -5
I just added a steer to my herd. He was herded into a small paddock, but got agitated and ran through the fence by the time I got there with the trailer. There were 5 "cowboys" and a four wheeler there to catch him out of the 5 acre pasture. It took about an hour to do it. He finally got tired enough that they were able to rope and tie him. I backed the trailer up to him and they put him in the trailer. He was exhausted. He came out of the trailer limping. I guess he had gotten hurt during the capture process. Off topic for this thread, but when I read stuff like this it makes me see red. If he had just been taken from "his mother and his friends", why was he not separated with his mother or another companion until the trailer came? We hear all to often of these cowboy and 4 wheeler tactics. This is SO not necessary. Do not create panic by putting a herd animal alone in a paddock; better yet, if possible bring him (with companion)in a back barn door from their familiar field and load from a front barn door..marion
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Post by Deleted on Mar 5, 2014 16:00:51 GMT -5
Hi Genebo If thats the environment he came from, then it would be a little unfair to judge his temperament because of his genes. I know you probably wouldn’t but thought I would say it anyways
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Post by kansasdexters on Mar 6, 2014 10:08:02 GMT -5
It's simple to put up a temporary catch pen within an open area that is accessible with a truck and trailer. T-posts can be quickly placed and cattle panels wire-tied to them. Leave one cattle panel untied on one side, so that it can be opened and closed like a gate. Leave the "gate" panel open for several days and put a bucket with sweet feed or other treat inside the catch pen each day, at the same time, and use it to reward the cattle for coming in. On the day you need to load out, close the gate panel with the cattle inside the catch pen and secure it with a chain or wire ties. Drive in to the pasture, and back the trailer up to the "gate" panel, lining up one side of the trailer with the post that secures the "gate" panel. Open the gate panel to the inside of the catch pen, flexing it backwards until you can line it up with the other side of the trailer (the side where the hinges for the trailer door are). Swing the trailer door open and have someone hold it open and against the flexed gate panel. This effectively makes a "funnel" towards the open trailer. Put a bucket with some cubes or sweet feed into the far end of the trailer. Take another bucket with some cubes and go into the catch pen. If the cattle are used to being hand fed, they will follow the bucket to the trailer. Make sure there is plenty of light and that they can see there is another bucket or two of treats inside the trailer. Put your bucket down, far enough into the trailer that they have to climb in to get it. Then get out of their way and wait patiently.
They will climb in, without stressing, and the trailer door can be quietly closed behind them. It is much easier to load two or three animals into the trailer, and then sort out the ones that aren't going; than it is to isolate a single animal and then attempt to load him by himself into a strange trailer.
Portable corral panels can also be used for making a temporary catch pen. Whether using cattle panels and t-posts, or portable corral panels, it is important to only use panels that are high enough that the animals can't jump over them; and to properly secure them, so that the animals can't push under or through them. Portable corrals and catch pens should be set-up several days ahead of time, so that the cattle have a chance to get used to going in and out of the catch pen, unimpeded and at their own pace.
Patti
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Post by Dahdo on Mar 6, 2014 10:55:13 GMT -5
Patti, that is exactly how I handled the cow and calf that we sold this past fall. Once they overcome their natural wariness of something new, they are intensely curious animals. And of course, suckers for treats. I have little in the way of permanent handling facilities, other than a headgate and a 60x160 sacrifice/heavy use area. I keep several corral panels that I can arrange for whatever the need--a pen and chute for the headgate, a holding pen for slaughter, a confinement for area for reluctant mother and calf, or a creep feed for weaned calves. They are so used to seeing these panels in various configurations, that there is very little time needed before they come wandering in--looking for the good hay or treats.
Caution is needed with those panels as you said--they need to be securely attached to t posts. I also never leave older animals in a "panel pen" unattended for extended periods--it is possible for an animal to get its neck stuck between panels and they can pass out very quickly if the jugular is compressed. I witnessed this when one of my yearlings got stuck and fell over as he started to lose consciousness. His head came out as he fell, but he could barely walk as he stumbled away in a daze. Very scary.
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Post by midhilldexters on Mar 16, 2014 7:13:17 GMT -5
Judy, Understand you may have missed this, or maybe you are ignoring my question. However to come on an open forum, tell the world you know of two more bulls that owners said have issues and then not say who they were is not much help to other breeders. If it is a case of getting permission from the owners I am happy to ask them if you don't have the time for it, if they say no then at least I can report that back here. Thoughts?
Carol K
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