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Post by rhonda on Mar 16, 2014 19:00:22 GMT -5
I spend time on the KFC board, all they talk about are how psycho bulls are (mostly Jerseys) on here I hear about Brenn and Midas and Mike who all sound wonderful. Is there another side of the coin? I'm planning for the future and would like to hear the negative side of keeping a Dexter bull other than the expense. Lower Delaware Back on the question...my experience with my bull Selby has for the most part been positive. A few times he has got on the neighbors is the only trouble I have had. He behaves himself--but I always remember he is a bull. He was born here and has never shown any aggression. If he does he will be hamburger. His sire was easy to get along with as well. I hope the squabbling and picking at each other does not run anyone off.... Most folks are probably like me and come here for info not bickering!
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Post by Olga on Mar 16, 2014 23:50:34 GMT -5
Clarifacation: I am the only moderator with the option to edit or delete other people's posts. The statement about Judy's post having been edited was misinterpreted, it was Judy who edited it, as can be proven by the security logs.
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Post by libertyfarm on Mar 17, 2014 18:54:34 GMT -5
I am new-ish here, and truly have no dog in this fight. So please understand I am only trying to show how someone new to Dexters may be feeling. I think prospective Dexter bull owners have the right to know which bloodlines to be wary of so they can make a thoroughly informed decision on what genetics they are bringing into their herd. This does not mean that all offspring from those lines should be avoided, only that it needs to be taken into consideration when making such a big decision. I know I'd be pretty upset if I had UNWITTINGLY bought a bull from a bloodline that had a history or reputation of being aggressive. I would be downright livid if I was attacked by a bull from a bloodline whose aggressiveness was known to only a few people. I think you all are very passionate about your animals, and I glean so much information from each of you. I just think transparency & full disclosure should be the way to go...especially considering this is one of the first places prospective and new owners come to for information on the breed.
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outofthebox
member
If you always do what you always did, You will always get what you always got.....Albert Einstein.
Posts: 78
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Post by outofthebox on Mar 17, 2014 22:32:29 GMT -5
I am new-ish here, and truly have no dog in this fight. So please understand I am only trying to show how someone new to Dexters may be feeling. I think prospective Dexter bull owners have the right to know which bloodlines to be wary of so they can make a thoroughly informed decision on what genetics they are bringing into their herd. This does not mean that all offspring from those lines should be avoided, only that it needs to be taken into consideration when making such a big decision. I know I'd be pretty upset if I had UNWITTINGLY bought a bull from a bloodline that had a history or reputation of being aggressive. I would be downright livid if I was attacked by a bull from a bloodline whose aggressiveness was known to only a few people. I think you all are very passionate about your animals, and I glean so much information from each of you. I just think transparency & full disclosure should be the way to go...especially considering this is one of the first places prospective and new owners come to for information on the breed. No disrespect but such a scenario is a pipe-dream of newbies. This sort of thing wont happen with the majority. (Of course there are some minorities who are more than willing to share issues such as temperament etc and my hat goes off to them.) Such an example: It has been assumed, and I use that word lightly, Woodmagic Wheatear to be the introducer of PHA to the Dexter, and while I am not disputing this by any means, my point is there are some Dexter breeders who will and still do avoid the Woodmagic (and just to be sure the Doesmead bloodlines) even with available testing and with many statistics later. And these breeders are passing information onto new Dexter purchasers of their stock to avoid such lines so as to avoid PHA. I have heard it with my own ears. So to state that a particular bloodline or bull may have a genetic disposition for bad temperament so newbies can be “wary of so they can make a thoroughly informed decision on what genetics they are bringing into their herd” could possibly lead some to the courts for financial reimbursement of damaged reputations, that could and history has shown, will carry on for decades later, whether it is justified or not.’ My advice to you is beware the chinese whispers and double check all you hear, even from breeders who have bred for decades. Do your own research and make your own decisions. Footnote:
I actively own and breed Woodmagic bloodlines. All my stock is PHA free.
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Post by lakeportfarms on Mar 18, 2014 7:54:53 GMT -5
I am new-ish here, and truly have no dog in this fight. So please understand I am only trying to show how someone new to Dexters may be feeling. I think prospective Dexter bull owners have the right to know which bloodlines to be wary of so they can make a thoroughly informed decision on what genetics they are bringing into their herd. This does not mean that all offspring from those lines should be avoided, only that it needs to be taken into consideration when making such a big decision. I know I'd be pretty upset if I had UNWITTINGLY bought a bull from a bloodline that had a history or reputation of being aggressive. I would be downright livid if I was attacked by a bull from a bloodline whose aggressiveness was known to only a few people. I think you all are very passionate about your animals, and I glean so much information from each of you. I just think transparency & full disclosure should be the way to go...especially considering this is one of the first places prospective and new owners come to for information on the breed. It's awfully hard to pin the poor behavior of a bull on the lack of disclosure about a specific pedigree. For every one of those (and they are few and far between) there are dozens of ruined bulls due to an individual breeder or owners management of the bull. Purchase your bull from a breeder who tells you what you need to know, not what you want to hear.
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Post by midhilldexters on Mar 18, 2014 8:18:18 GMT -5
The problem is one person says something, it can get repeated and before you know it the rumor is the truth. Or something can get posted and go unchallenged so it's there for everyone to believe. So now someone says something about traditional bulls. Before you know it you see stuff posted that says something like, " I heard not to use traditional bulls" or "I saw someone say traditional bulls attacked their owners" and it goes on and on until people just assume that's the truth.
On the other hand if it's the truth, then people deserve to know.
For example, and this has nothing to do with attacks, but Parndon Bullfinch is said to have Guernsey in his pedigree. How many times have these rumors been talked about, yes there are some calves born from that line that have some white patches, can it be proved it's because of the Guernsey blood? No, but it helps the rumor.
Carol K
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Post by kansasdexters on Mar 18, 2014 9:04:27 GMT -5
The easiest way for a new breeder to confidently select a calm bull with good temperament, is to find a breeder that they can visit and observe how their herd bull behaves. Can you walk up to that bull and scratch his back? Are you comfortable being around him? If not, then don't buy your bull from that breeder. Avoid buying a young unweaned bull calf as a herd sire prospect. Avoid buying on impulse or automatically buying the first bull that you see. Avoid buying an untested, unregistered bull. If you don't know what to look for in a herd sire prospect, then ask a more experienced Dexter breeder (that isn't offering to sell a bull) to go with you to look at the herd sire prospect you are considering.
Please discard the rumors and innuendoes. Good temperament is a desirable breed trait that experienced, knowledgeable Dexter breeders purposefully select for (in whatever Dexter pedigree line they are breeding with). A reputable Dexter breeder will not offer a bull for sale as breeding stock, if it does not have the desired breed traits. An ignorant or inexperienced Dexter breeder/owner will offer any male calf they produce as breeding stock because they don't have the knowledge or skill to differentiate between what is suitable, and what is not. Ask for references on bulls sold by a breeder, then follow up on those references.
Patti
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Post by libertyfarm on Mar 18, 2014 9:58:28 GMT -5
The easiest way for a new breeder to confidently select a calm bull with good temperament, is to find a breeder that they can visit and observe how their herd bull behaves. Can you walk up to that bull and scratch his back? Are you comfortable being around him? If not, then don't buy your bull from that breeder. Avoid buying a young unweaned bull calf as a herd sire prospect. Avoid buying on impulse or automatically buying the first bull that you see. Avoid buying an untested, unregistered bull. If you don't know what to look for in a herd sire prospect, then ask a more experienced Dexter breeder (that isn't offering to sell a bull) to go with you to look at the herd sire prospect you are considering. Please discard the rumors and innuendoes. Good temperament is a desirable breed trait that experienced, knowledgeable Dexter breeders purposefully select for (in whatever Dexter pedigree line they are breeding with). A reputable Dexter breeder will not offer a bull for sale as breeding stock, if it does not have the desired breed traits. An ignorant or inexperienced Dexter breeder/owner will offer any male calf they produce as breeding stock because they don't have the knowledge or skill to differentiate between what is suitable, and what is not. Ask for references on bulls sold by a breeder, then follow up on those references. Patti Perfectly said...this should be moved to the very front of this thread...maybe even made a sticky in the Dexter Bull section. Bringing in a bull is such a big, kind of scary, decision. And it is most definitely the responsibility of each and every owner to thoroughly research the genetics they are bringing in and selling...I've heard all the stories about Lucifer, yet I still choose to bring his genetics into my herd because of the direction I want my herd to take...it makes no difference to me that his name will always be surrounded by controversy . Knowing there could be an issue with aggression only means that I need to consider the actions of my animals in a slightly different light and make breeding & culling decisions accordingly. Same thing with my currently untested Woodmagic Wheatear descendants. I love my Woodmagic girls classic Dexter look, their calves are always strong and beautiful, and my 9 year old still has an amazing udder, which is the quality we chose her for in the first place. I can't imagine culling them if they end up being PHA carriers. Why would I want to destroy those genetics when there is no guarantee of their offspring being carriers?! My momma told me to never throw out the baby with the bath water However, I would not sell a PHA carrier unless I knew the prospective owner fully understood what that means and entails. Guess my point was that it would be nice if transparency and full disclosure were the name of the game. Sorry to hijack the original poster's question :/
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Post by cddexter on Mar 18, 2014 12:51:21 GMT -5
Which brings us back to, so who are these Dexter bulls Judy refers to?
I guess my post is going to be labeled stalking because I'm trying to hold Judy accountable for her post.
The technique I've noticed over the years is for her to post in one of her multiple guises, to offer what appears to be a tantalizing tidbit, but not actually give enough information to be useful. When anyone--anyone--tries to get more info, we are all treated to the kind of righteous victim tirade she's just posted.
If the queston is pursued, then we get the next step along: 'you're just baiting me, I'm not going to fall into your trap, nya, nya', which fairly obviously attempts to deflect attention from the real issue: her refusal to provide real answers.
If she never intended to identifiy the animals, what was the point of posting? Maybe that's the question we should all be asking...
cheers, c.
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Post by cddexter on Mar 18, 2014 16:17:01 GMT -5
Thanks, Gene, but we are still waiting for Judy's reply. If the owners didn't want the info out there, she had no right to bring up the subject, knowing it would invite questions. Carol K offered to get the information, and all she got for her pains was a virilent personal attack. Having raised the issue, it's too late for Judy to claim she's protecting privacy. So, what's the game?
not baiting, not rude, not stalking, just hoping for a new attitude which includes real answers to real questions..
Cheers, c.
PS I had a dead quiet 7/8-year-old Woodmagic bull turn nasty overnight. He was on the truck within three days. Following Legacy logic, maybe I should warn poeple against Woodmagic bloodlines?
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jamshundred
member
Help build the Legacy Dexter Cattle "Forever" Genotype database
Posts: 289
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Post by jamshundred on Mar 18, 2014 19:08:08 GMT -5
Here is the copy that I deleted. Having experienced this forum editing content or removing it I decided Olga might object although there is no profanity in my comments. Just honest emotions.
BEGIN COPY
POUND SAND ! You have spent every year you have been in Dexters baiting me and making negative insinuations which had no basis in reality. ( As a matter of fact you have never apologized for the attempts to discredit me when I was trying to uncover the truth on Saltaire Platinum which has now, at long last and many years too late, been acknowledged to be factual by the association on whose board you were serving at the time), and everyone who knows me or has ever had any exchange with me knows me to be honest and straightforward. That you do not like me is a given and frankly my dear tell it to someone who gives a hoot in hades.
END COPY
Marion, this should give the lie to your dramatics. Vitriolic. LOL! I have yet to hear you apologize for the vitrol I experienced for simply asking questions and trying to get the truth told about Saltaire Platinum. Have NOT seen YOU apologize yet for being so darn wrong dahling!
I find it real interesting that Carol K was sent the original post. It was on the board no longer than a few minutes and *I* know who was signed on at the time. Usual sneaky back-biting FEMALE stuff. So typical of the bunch. LOL!
Judy
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jamshundred
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Help build the Legacy Dexter Cattle "Forever" Genotype database
Posts: 289
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Post by jamshundred on Mar 18, 2014 19:15:10 GMT -5
Outofthebox. If you told me something in a personal conversation I would not run and post it on the internet. I have written that ANYONE who is concerned that a traditional bull born in PA ( and died there as well) might be in their five line pedigree ( which we are told is all that is needed to get a mongrel mutt from crossbred to purebred again), they need only write and ask me and I will tell them. That is the RIGHT way to do it.
Carol D - When I put a post on this board inquiring of you as to why you had made a negative comment about Ms. Fermoy being registered at the age of 5 ( which you handled in the first place), and then inquired as to why two of your bulls were not registered until 5 and 7 years of age, the post was edited and my question removed. There is censorship on this board that many users are not aware of.
You know of any number of bulls that were problematic. You know of rumors of TWO major herds in England that were later imported to the US. Why haven't you told breeders about those? And, lastly. . . .why did you repeatedly LIE about Saltaire Platinum being pure and for years cause all the hard feelings towards me for trying to tell the truth? Why didn't you stand up and be honorable about that issue, which has had far more ramifications to this breed than bad humored bulls.
Judy
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jamshundred
member
Help build the Legacy Dexter Cattle "Forever" Genotype database
Posts: 289
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Post by jamshundred on Mar 18, 2014 19:43:09 GMT -5
Pretty sneaky Carol K. LOL!
First, the story about Parndon Charley Pudding being half-guernsey came from England and it came BEFORE there was much knowledge of the genetics of color. Since his mother was RED if PCP had been 1/2 Guernsey HE would have been red instead of black. Perhaps you have not heard or neglected to tell the OTHER rumor which is that PCP "may" have been 100% full blood, that Dr. Thower had some cattle from Scotland that had no registry papers on the farm and he could have been bred by one of them. The truth is. . . . his markers ARE very consistent with traditional Dexter cattle.
Next, the white spotting issue. The purity of PCP came into question when he was loaned to a farm that had dairy breed type cattle and calves appeared with white markings. Next, Winona Crapp from Canada exported a bull to a country whose herd permits upgrading and when bred to cattle there white spotting appeared. What was not taken into consideration is that ALL Dexter cattle likely carry genes of white spotting and when bred to crossed cattle also carrying white spotting you can expect white to appear. There ARE original Dexters that were registered "by inspection" with notations of white color, and there are photos of early cattle with white. Breed those recessives together and the white will pop out. I have seen a calf from Hedgehog 3rd and a fullblood pedigree cow that looked as if there was a layer of frost on the black coat. This faded as the calf matured. There is no published research as yet defining the white coloring found on various cattle and what causes various markings or patterns to appear.
While researching Parndon Bullfinch *I* personally called every living breeder who had used the semen and had calves from him and not a single one said they had ever had a white marking in any of their calves.
However, the imported bulls Lucifer of Knotting and Saltaire Platinum HAVE brought lots of white color to the US herd. It was AFTER Lucifer was imported that white really began to appear and ADCA changed their registration certificate in the 90's for breeders to draw white markings on a diagram when they registered their Dexters. There are calves down from these lines that are VERY colorful. You can find pictures of some of them on various websites. On the old Dakodan board one breeder posted a photo of one of his calves which looked very much like a red/white holstein. Sandy Thomas has a number of colorful calves on her website.
Judy
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Post by midhilldexters on Mar 18, 2014 20:01:55 GMT -5
No Judy, not sneaky, using an example that's all. You can throw out all the red herrings and try and point the finger at people about anything you want to change the subject. There was absolutely no need to mention the two bulls that attacked their owners if you didn't want to start something. You were the one that brought it up, you are the one that now doesn't want to name them, Genebo knows of them and he doesn't want to name them. Everyone take note.
Carol K
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jamshundred
member
Help build the Legacy Dexter Cattle "Forever" Genotype database
Posts: 289
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Post by jamshundred on Mar 18, 2014 20:22:22 GMT -5
Marion,
Another perfect example of the "gang" of you who has stalked me for 10 years mad as the dickens because of questioins I kept asking about and then the "outing" of Saltaire Platinum and really ticked off because I told you what was going to happen if politics did not cease and it DID! Your knickers are always in knots because you have NEVER been able to catch me in the wrong! Oh, my, but you do try though! None of you are honorable because you took part in . . . or supported the attempts to discredit me long after it was acknowledged I was right and truthful. And here you go again Marion. Never once have you put anything specific against me in writing. Why is that? Could it be because you simply cannot find anything beyond innuendo and insinuation? Yept.
So. . . .you are warning people about me huh? Do you know how many Dexter folks I've had dealings with over the 10 years you have been sniping at me? I love Dexters and Dexter owners and those who deal with me know it! Your warnings may make those who have yet to "meet" me wary, but I am confident the others will see right through you because you ARE pretty obvious to them. They know better.
But let's talk about me and Legacy and Legacy's accomplishments. And when you finish the read I give YOU permission to write back and tell ME what YOU have done for Dexters and their owners!
1. Founded the FIRST Dexter DNA database at the Univeristy of California - VGL laboratory. In 2004 I tried to get both ADCA and PDCA to use this world renowned facility, which developed DNA testing in cattle to recommend it to Dexter owners, and to help build a "Forever" genetic record of our breed. Note. . . that was in 2004.
2. C0-Founder of the Legacy preservation effort to raise awareness among breeders that traditional bloodline Dexter cattle were dwindling in numbers and hoped to encourage breeders to save these bloodlines. There has been growing success in this effort as more awareness exists and more breeders are moving away from the imports. Why was this necessary? Because members of the Dexter breed were LIED to about the upgraded genetics in imported bulls. The truth was not told. In American, there was never and still is NO upgrading allowed. Meanwhile imported bulls with upgrading were imported and the RARE bloodlines present in American began to be crossed with these imports and every offspring is NO LONGER a traditional bloodline. I am going to take a moment here . . . .. I have been disappointed that many members of the Dexter breed who use these bloodlines over time have been angry with me for discussing the upgrading, claiming fears it will harm their ability to sell. Do you know that NOT A SINGLE member of leadership or a SINGLE one of these breeders has ever lamented the hardship this scam brought to traditional HORNED breeders and the loss they have suffered?
3. Founded the first Dexter Genotype registry on this continent. It began as part of the Legacy preservation effort but grew with the support of Dexter breeders of all types.
4. Established the FIRST location where Dexter owners could have ALL tests performed at one location the TOP laboratory of it's type in the US, and world renowned for it's experience and expertise.
5. Established prices for testing that were LESS THAN HALF what Dexters owners had been paying at other labs. This pricing caused other labs to have to cut their prices. This was a wonderful effort and benefit to Dexter owners.
6. With the original research and efforts of Gene Bowen of this forum, negotiated with the A2 Corporation to bring A2 testing to America so that individual owners could test. The first license granted by A2 Corp was given to UCD.
8. Negotiated with Australia to bring Chondro testing to UCD.
7. Negotiated with Dr. Beever to gain permission to have PHA testing at UCD.
8. Developed the idea for DIRECT testing at CONTRACT prices with UC-Davis-VGL and worked to implement the testing that exists today because it was ultimately in the BEST INTERESTS of the breed and it's owners.
9. Instituted "purple pedigrees" in the Legacy online program so that there would be an ability for owners, breeders, and researchers to be able to trace breed characteristics through bloodlines with a single glance at a pedigree.
10. Designed Obligate certificates for Dexter owners to keep in their files or show potential buyers for A2, Chondro, and PHA testing which requires parentage confirmation of the obligate progeny. Not available elsewhere!
More in the works and more to come. Every effort for the Dexter breed and it's owners. So what part of all that do you think is so awful it should be connected solely to me Marion? Bless your mean-spirited little soul is all I have to say for you!
Judy
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