hoperefuge
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Milking our Dexters in the mountains of KY since 2007
Posts: 101
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Post by hoperefuge on Feb 7, 2016 12:44:13 GMT -5
I'm 5 ft. tall, too sunrisedexters, and love my short, sweet cows! I think another part of the problem with a lot of modern Dexters not looking like the old photos, is a failure to breed for excellent body type/proportions and production qualities. A lot of Dexter people have had a "preservationist" mindset, thinking that we have to keep them ALL in the gene pool instead of culling the poor quality animals. So there are quite a lot of Dexters who are too shallow-bodied, too narrow, and poorly muscled with lousy udders...they look nothing like those old photos. And as pointed out in the OP, it is possible to breed short animals without using chondro to get there. The variety of colors, and horned or polled, are what make it fun (to me, at least). Don't feel like an animal is "less than" just because it isn't black & horned like the majority of the old photos. That dual-purpose, efficient production body type is more important than the "bells & whistles". Kim
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zephyrhillsusan
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Caught Dexteritis in Dec. 2009. Member of this forum since Oct. 2013.
Posts: 1,502
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Post by zephyrhillsusan on Feb 7, 2016 14:18:59 GMT -5
Welcome to the forum, sunrisedexters! We're glad you're interested in Dexters, and hope you'll be able to find the perfect Dexters for you. Depending on where you are, we might be able to steer you to breeders that you can visit to learn about the breed. There is a wide variety among Dexters, and looking around at various breeders will help you see what's out there and find what you want. Most Dexter breeders are thrilled to have visitors and a chance to talk about their beloved cattle!
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Post by legendrockranch on Feb 7, 2016 15:30:47 GMT -5
Humans change over time and so do cattle. It's called evolution and it doesn't take thousands of years for it to happen. I think the changes you might be seeing are a small part along with what others have mentioned, such as breeders choices. I have included a couple of links to show just how much humans have changes in the last 100 years. www.livescience.com/46894-how-humans-changed-in-100-years.htmlIn this last link I can personally attest to the fact that some humans are now being born without wisdom teeth. My husband is a retired Dentist, I at one time was his assistant, so I saw it first hand. I should have said the lack of them. mentalfloss.com/article/30795/5-signs-humans-are-still-evolvingBarb
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Post by sunrisedexters on Feb 7, 2016 20:50:02 GMT -5
I really like the look of the cow Lamancha Love Lost, and I also like the look of the kerry cow just below her. Is the kerry a type of Dexter? I haven't seen any Kerry cows for sale, but she looks like a lot of the Dexters that I have seen on Craigslist that are not registered. But there are also some on craigslist not far away that don't look like the dexters here. The bull looks really tall compared to the pictures of bulls here. grandrapids.craigslist.org/grd/5414525669.htmlIsn't it kind of odd that there are so many variations? After all belted galloway and highlanders and herefords all look pretty much the same. Angus look a lot like other breeds but to me they kind of look like some of the Dexters I've seen only maybe even a little better for beef anyway. We have a neighbor that has lowline angus and they are not very tall either. But I think I like the shorter cow lamancha love lost more since I'm not that tall myself and I would be more comfortable handling her. Plus I have two young kids that I would like to have help and large cattle would be too much for them right now. We do have goats, chickens, a couple of pigs, and a horse so we're not entirely unfamiliar with livestock. To me the ones I see on the dexter association website are not very appealing because they are not so unique looking as the ones here in the old photos so I would like to stay with this type on our farm. Is there some other breed mixed in with the newer ones to make them look so different? I know people have grown taller over the years, so that would make the cows in the photo even smaller since they are only waist high on shorter people! Since I am still trying to decide, I would rather purchase some within a couple of hours away so I could see them and get close to them. And I'd rather not get too carried away with my budget if I decide it's not a good fit for our farm or maybe we decide we like a different breed more after we have them for a while. We live very near the Ohio/Indiana/Michigan border in Ohio. Are there any breeders nearby that have Dexters like these here? I found this one on craigslist not far away and she looks pretty but she's getting a bit old. How long do they normally live? Could she be registered as a dexter since she looks so much like the old dexters here in the photos? toledo.craigslist.org/grd/5436847086.htmlI don't think we're ready for a bull, and we might use AI. I see a couple of bulls on the Dexter website for AI bulls that look like the ones here and there is a nearby dairy farm that I know has a woman who does AI on their cows that could help me.
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Post by kansasdexters on Feb 7, 2016 22:09:49 GMT -5
sunrisedexters - The Dexter breed descended from the Kerry breed. Go back to the beginning of this thread and you can read some of the history of the Dexter breed and how it is related to the Kerry breed. An unregistered Dexter (like the 10-year old cow in the Craigslist ad above) cannot be registered unless she can be proven by parentage testing to be the offspring of a registered Dexter bull and a registered Dexter cow. That's not likely to happen because the owner probably doesn't have that documentation for the cow. There are a number of Dexter owner/breeders in your area that have registered and unregistered Dexter cattle. Here is a link to the Ohio Valley Dexter Breeders group: ohiovalleydexters.weebly.com/
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Post by cddexter on Feb 7, 2016 23:20:59 GMT -5
well done, Patti.
There are only a few who are breeding for quality udders with high reat attachment (escutcheon). Patti has some nice animals. She's been lucky to have a wide variety and volume to choose from, so it hasn't taken her long to produce a real quality animal, cinsistently.
cheers, c.
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Post by carragheendexters on Feb 8, 2016 2:04:23 GMT -5
Welcome sunrisedexters to this fantastic board. You will learn a lot on here as there are so many experienced breeders on here. Perhaps you should put an ad on the Saleyard section of the board listing what you are looking for and you may be able to find exactly the Dexter that you want. You should put a little intro on the Welcome thread telling us about your little farm and family and we can all give you a proper warm welcome. Also photos, we all love photos and would love to see your children with your animals. Only thing you have to use Tinypic or Photo bucket to post photos but if you have problems we can help you with that too. I am sure when you find the Dexter that you are looking for you will love her to bits, just like everyone on here loves their cows.
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Post by sunrisedexters on Feb 8, 2016 9:39:57 GMT -5
Thanks i will check out Ohio valley dexters they are not far away. If the people know the owner of the bull and cow and they both are registered, is it possible to register this cow in Bowling Green on craigslist or is there some time limit because she is older? Thanks for all your help.
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Post by kansasdexters on Feb 8, 2016 9:57:49 GMT -5
sunrisedexters - If the sire and dam, of the old cow in Bowling Green, are registered and genotyped, and she can be parentage qualified to them, then she can be registered regardless of her age. It does cost more to register a female that is more than 1 year old, but it can be done. The problem with many older cows is that their sires and/or dams have not been genotyped and they are dead and long gone, so there is no way to check parentage back to registered stock. When this is the case, the unregistered offspring are not eligible for registration.
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zephyrhillsusan
member
Caught Dexteritis in Dec. 2009. Member of this forum since Oct. 2013.
Posts: 1,502
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Post by zephyrhillsusan on Feb 8, 2016 10:47:56 GMT -5
Also, sunrisedexters, it's very hard to tell how large or small an animal is without something to gauge them by. The bull in your first link is out in a pasture so it's really impossible to tell how tall he might be. It seems that you are attracted to the horned animals, and their horns are very lovely. Several breeders here, including kansasdexters and hoperefuge, have horned animals and really like them. Other people choose to keep polled animals for various reasons, although I won't get into that here since that's not the subject of this thread. As far as the horned cow you like in the second ad, I just want to point out that the owner seems to be selling her because she's pushing their other animals around. Since you have children, that comment is something you might want to think about in regard to this particular cow.
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Post by sunrisedexters on Feb 8, 2016 11:43:02 GMT -5
I looked at the american dexter cattle association website and see the requirements and it talks about born after 2009 needing to be dna tested, but it doesn't seem to require older cows, so I'm kind of confused why the older one needs to be tested if parents might be known and registered. Are all older cows dna tested? I havent contacted the owner of this cow so it may not matter, but I guess it would be nice to know if she could be or if I find another like this. I see a lot of ads that say "can be registered" on craigslist and maybe they cant be? dextercattle.org/forms/registration%20regulations%20final%20version%20(1).pdfIt's nice of some of you to point me toward some here like Kansasdexters that have nice dexters, but my budget isn't enough to go so far from home to buy some. I'd like 2 or 3 since we only have 15 acres and the horse eats a lot. I do like the look of horns because it looks historic compared to most other cows I see. We purchased a very old farmhouse and barn, and are trying to maintain a historical look to our farm. I would love to have photographs like this framed and on our wall to go along with real ones outside. Polled means the horns have been cut off, right?
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hoperefuge
member
Milking our Dexters in the mountains of KY since 2007
Posts: 101
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Post by hoperefuge on Feb 8, 2016 11:58:17 GMT -5
That form is a very good explanation of what's needed to register an animal, and yes you're right, an older cow *may* not have to have her sire genotyped. Just because somebody claims an animal "can be registered" though, doesn't mean they actually know what they're talking about, so if you want registered stock MAKE SURE before you buy! Polled means a cow genetically does not have horns at all. Dehorned means the horns have been removed. I'd really love to comment on that bull, at the risk of offending somebody. He looks "taller" because his body is way too shallow (and narrow). Meant to be educational. Kim
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Post by cddexter on Feb 8, 2016 12:35:59 GMT -5
Sunrisedexters: I'd suggest you check out the ADCA website, go to near the bottom of the home page, and use the 'search' option: Look up chondrodysplasia, pha, basic coat color in Dexters, polling in Dexters, and photo archive. This will give you a great grounding to help you make an informed decision. You might also go back in some of the threads here and check out comments and photos on the same topics.
Everyone has been terribly pleasant, but no one has mentioned that the Lost Love size isn't genetically stable. You'll get half the calves with the short genetics, and half with taller. It's just how the gene works. And if you don't pick the right bull, you have a (statistically) 24% chance of getting a 'bulldog' calf (look that up in the chondro article or in the dictionary section). You can get Dexters that are smaller without the choncro gene...you just have to search for them.
And...a 'cull' animal from a great herd is probably better than a good animal from a poor herd...maybe patti has something that doesn't meet her specs she could sell on for a lesser price? Or you could check out Paula Maras. She doesn't do much promotion, but she has some of the best Dexters around. Maybe take a weekend road trip this spring and check them out. Just don't get sucked in by generic ads. I've seem some pretty dreadful Dexters out there, advertised by (a) people who don't know any better, or (b) people who do but hope you don't), with clearly hyped verbage. It actually costs more to feed a poor quality animal that it does a good, and it takes generations of breeding to improve traits. Better to start with a reliable breeder who has consistency than something being thrown away on craigslist or kijiji.
Cheers, c.
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Post by kansasdexters on Feb 8, 2016 12:56:13 GMT -5
sunrisedexters - "Polled" means that the animal is genetically not horned. It only takes one polled allele in the gene pair for a Dexter to be "Polled", and that is called "Heterozygous Polled" and it means one polled allele and one horn allele. "Homozygous Polled" means two polled alleles in the gene pair. Either way, the animal is considered polled and is registered as "Polled". A heterozygous polled Dexter can produce horned offspring, 50% of the time, when mated to a horned Dexter (or other horned breed). That's because half the time it passes the polled allele and half the time it passes the horn allele to its offspring. The polled allele is dominant to the horn allele, so if it is present, it is expressed. A horned Dexter cannot "carry" a polled allele. So even if there is a polled ancestor in the pedigree, if the animal is horned, then it did not get the polled allele and it cannot pass on the polled allele to its offspring.
A genetically horned Dexter has two horn alleles in the gene pair, it is "Homozygous Horned". It will always pass on a horn allele, because that's all that it has at that gene pair. If it is dehorned or disbudded, it is still genetically horned, so it will always pass on the horn allele to its offspring.
To answer your question about registration of older animals (born before 2009) that are registered without genetic testing, the ones that I know of that have been registered with the ADCA without genetic testing are cattle that were registered with the PDCA when they were younger. They had documentation, and they had permanent ID (tattoo, USDA tag, or RFID tag) to be able to verify their identity with some degree of confidence. That usually isn't the case with cows that were sold as unregistered and that are now mature cows that have been owned and sold by different people. That's why being able to parentage qualify, prior to registration of the older, undocumented animals, becomes important for both the prospective owner and the registry, if a decision is made to try to register them.
When a breeder of registered stock, sells an animal as unregistered, they made the decision not to register that animal. Some breeders do not want animals that they chose to sell as unregistered, to end up being registered by someone else later on, using their herd prefix and showing them as the breeder.
Speaking for myself, I don't sell anything unregistered and I always pay to transfer the registered animal to the new owner. If I don't think it's worthy to be used as registered breeding stock in another herd, then I process it for beef, no exceptions.
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hoperefuge
member
Milking our Dexters in the mountains of KY since 2007
Posts: 101
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Post by hoperefuge on Mar 3, 2016 11:05:16 GMT -5
Coming back to this again, because it's had me thinking. Concerning the history of the breed, and the issue of size which keeps coming up.... kansasdexters or cddexter (or anybody else ) do you know when the earliest breed standard would have been introduced that addressed size. I'm so curious to know how a "historical" breed standard would compare to what we have now. Thanks! Kim
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