zephyrhillsusan
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Caught Dexteritis in Dec. 2009. Member of this forum since Oct. 2013.
Posts: 1,502
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Post by zephyrhillsusan on Mar 9, 2016 9:51:16 GMT -5
Very interesting reading, thanks for the input, cddexter . I've thought for a long time that we need a dual height guideline. It just seems logical--two genetically distinct groups of animals, different height guidelines. kansasdexters, genetic testing makes even more sense used as a tool like you do.
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Post by kansasdexters on Mar 9, 2016 11:09:26 GMT -5
Zephyrhillsusan,
At the First World Congress on Dexter Cattle, August 1998, Royal Agricultural College, Cirencester, U.K., there were delegates from Australia, Canada, Denmark, Germany, New Zealand, South Africa, USA, and the UK that met to discuss and draft a World Dexter Breed Standard. The draft standard and the discussions that preceded it, are recorded in the Proceedings of The First World Congress on Dexter Cattle, pages 170 - 173. Here are some paragraphs concerning the dual size standard that came out of this meeting:
"There was a major discussion on breed type and size. Mrs. Veronica Schofield (UK Delegate) and the Danish delegates (Marianne Seidenfaden and Jorgen Villadsen) felt that consideration should be given to having two separate Standards for long leg and short leg Dexters. It was suggested that two ranges of size be given for cows, one above 100 cm (40 inches) for long leg and one below for short leg. Professor Piet Wilke (South Africa delegate) spoke strongly against this idea and maintained that such a dual Standard would be against the breed's overall interest. He felt that the range given for Holsteins of 120-160 cm (48-64 inches) showed that a sufficiently wide range could also be given for Dexters to accommodate both types, and that if minimum and maximum heights are given, a linear classification system would also pick up the differences in the two types.
Professor Wes Patton (USA delegate) reminded the meeting that when a DNA test becomes available for dwarfism, it will be possible to forget the need to distinguish between types.
The Danish delegates were still concerned that there was a need to distinguish between short leg and long leg types and thus avoid the political lobby regarding "defective breeders"."
After lengthy discussions, it was agreed to set the maximum and minimum heights at 96-106 cm (38-42 inches) for cows and 101-111 cm (40-44 inches) for bulls, measured at the rump (hip height).
I supported Dr. Piet Wilke's position when the discussion on changing the size guideline into two separate guidelines (one for short-leg type and one for long-leg type) came up again at the ADCA AGM in Colorado in 2007. My reasoning was that if the Dexter breed is to be considered a breed, then we need to establish an acceptable size range for Dexter cows, and an acceptable size range for Dexter bulls, that includes both the short-legged and long-legged types that occur within the Dexter breed. Making two separate standards will essentially split the breed into two separate divisions, and since only a few animals are actually being DNA tested for the Chondrodysplasia allele, and even fewer are being reported to the ADCA as Chondro-carriers, it does not accomplish anything positive for the breed to have two separate divisions. I strongly believe that Dr. Wilke's idea of having a sufficient size range, with a specified minimum and a specified maximum height; was a good idea back in 1998, and is still a good idea now, in 2016, for the Dexter breed.
Patti
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hoperefuge
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Milking our Dexters in the mountains of KY since 2007
Posts: 101
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Post by hoperefuge on Mar 9, 2016 13:55:02 GMT -5
Well, it certainly seems that having the min & max sizes only 4" different (or even the 6" we currently have) hardly represents the entire breed, historically or otherwise. The dwarfs have been there from the beginning, as have the taller genetics, and neither are likely to go away, as much as anybody may wish it.
Kim
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zephyrhillsusan
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Caught Dexteritis in Dec. 2009. Member of this forum since Oct. 2013.
Posts: 1,502
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Post by zephyrhillsusan on Mar 9, 2016 18:22:59 GMT -5
kansasdexters, I certainly understand your viewpoint. I can really see good reasons on both sides--which is probably why no one has ever been able to agree to change anything! But I have to agree with hoperefuge that I'm not sure the size range we have today accurately reflects average Dexter sizes. (For the record, I'm not campaigning for increasing our breed size to giant Dexters!)
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Post by kansasdexters on Mar 9, 2016 18:50:50 GMT -5
Susan,
I believe that an 8-inch height range for mature cows (36-44 inches hip height) and a 10-inch height range for mature bulls (38-48 inches hip height) would adequately include most of the purebred, registered Dexter cattle, regardless of whether they were Chondro-carriers or non-carriers, short-legged or long-legged. Since we really only use these criteria as guidelines for the breed, and not as true standards that are required for maintaining an animal's registration status, it doesn't really change anything other than to acknowledge that there exists a wide range in size within the Dexter breed.
Patti
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Post by carragheendexters on Mar 9, 2016 22:13:29 GMT -5
I think that our Dexter Standard in Australia allows for the size variation in chondro and non chondros, and also within each type. We have a Breed ideal which describes the preferred height as being (measured at the rump at 3 years of age) for cows: 97cm-107cm or in inches 38-42 inches for bulls: 102cm-112cm or in inches 40-44 inches. We then also have in the Breed Standard an allowable height for cows: 91cm-112cm or in inches 36-44 inches for bulls: 97cm-117cm or in inches 38-46 inches Heights outside of these ranges are undesirable for breeding showing, or registration. It doesn't mean that you can't , just undesirable. This range is generous which should allow both chondro and non chondro to fit, without having excessively small or tall animals. I have both chondro and non chondro animals and they easily fit into this range, actually most would fit into the ideal range, just some of the non chondro cows would be a little taller than 42 inches.
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Post by carragheendexters on Mar 9, 2016 22:15:04 GMT -5
When we have our cattle classified here in Australia, any at the extreme of the ranges are marked down.
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Post by legendrockranch on Mar 9, 2016 22:38:29 GMT -5
I remember many years ago, surely before the 2007 AGM. Several of us were at the Missouri AGM sitting around under a moonlit night in a gazebo having a discussion about having 2 different height standards for Dexters. Yes Patti still holds to her beliefs . As the majority of us wanted to have 2 standards Patti explained why we shouldn't. Standards/guidelines/preferred heights.....call it what you like, they are different in countries. Why is that??? You would think that the societies or associations would at least have the same "standards/guidelines/preferred heights. My mind hasn't change either, I still would like to see 2 separate height guidelines. It won't happen though, if we can't get people to test for chondro it would be a mute point. Huh, I just notice this on the ADCA website for bulls. "Typical range in height is between 36 inches and 50 inches, with a recommended range of 38-44 inches". For cows, "Typical range in height is between 34 inches and 46 inches, with a recommended range of 36-42 inches". Barb
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Post by kansasdexters on Mar 10, 2016 8:20:40 GMT -5
Barb-
We agree that in order to successfully implement two standards for stature, one for Chondro-carriers and one for non-carriers, there has to be mandatory testing and reporting for Chondrodysplasia. However, I don't see mandatory testing and reporting for Chondrodysplasia happening for two main reasons:
1. Many Dexter breeders believe that they can identify Chondro-carriers just by looking at them, they don't see any need to test.
2. There is a deep concern among many owner/breeders of Chondro-carriers that if they positively identify, and report on, the cattle in their herds that are Chondro-carriers, it will facilitate their eradication from the breed. The basis of this concern stems from the failed attempt by the PDCA to eliminate Chondro-carrier bulls in their registry by a specified deadline.
Then it all goes back to the fact that historically, the only requirement for registration has been that the calf be from a registered Sire and a registered Dam. The genotyping requirements that have been put in place in the ADCA, starting in 2009, are the only additional requirements, and it's been slow going just to get where the ADCA will actually require full parentage qualification for registration (that won't even happen for a few more years).
Since there is no stature requirement for registration, or for maintaining registered status, or even for showing cattle in ADCA sponsored events, it doesn't really seem to matter if those guidelines for stature vary by a few inches from country to country. They are just guidelines and there are factors, other than genetics, that can affect the mature size attained by any Dexter. Nutrition, environmental conditions, and disease can all affect the growth and development of the animal. Genetics are only a part of the equation, it's not the whole equation.
Patti
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Post by cddexter on Mar 10, 2016 11:21:57 GMT -5
and I'm just as strongly for two. At least it would make people think... Let's ask sunrise, who's just posted here, if she understands what she's getting, and why, since she likes the little ones because she's not too tall, herself. If she buys a Dexter cow that's 40" and loves it to pieces, but it turns out it's a dwarf, will she also love that 44-45-46 inch daughter? Would she prefer to buy a small non and know the offspring would be consistent? And Patti, if you bring up again that mother daughter you always use as an example, where there's only two inches difference, not six, I'll come to Kansas and shoot you myself. We aren't talking exceptions, we're talking averages!!! By having just one height for all, it allows (encourages) people to not cull for size. I guess this comes back to what I said earlier here, if we had more people breeding just nons and developing a really nice, genetically small cow with good qualities, I think we'd knock the socks off the up/down/all over the place stock that's out there today in too many herds. Not sure if they still have it, but England at one time had a breeding guideline (v. standard), like AU, and it was divided into sections: suitable for breeding, suitable for showing, suitable for AI, maybe a good idea to not register, and it included heights. If we had something similar, maybe that would keep Patti and Piet happy, and Barb and me, too? cheers, c.
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hoperefuge
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Milking our Dexters in the mountains of KY since 2007
Posts: 101
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Post by hoperefuge on Mar 10, 2016 11:39:09 GMT -5
Well, I didn't mean to start another war! I wanted to learn about the history of the size of the breed & size standards...not learn the history of ADCA battles. So, now that that's clear... I can see both sides of the argument. The potential problem I see with two different height standards, IS those folks who are breeding small-statured non-carriers. If we only allow dwarfs down to 36", and nons can only be down to 40" (or whatever division you choose for the minimum), if somebody is managing to breed nice, quality non-carriers that are 38"....well, do we really want that to be discouraged? I find it quite the dilemma, personally! Kim
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zephyrhillsusan
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Caught Dexteritis in Dec. 2009. Member of this forum since Oct. 2013.
Posts: 1,502
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Post by zephyrhillsusan on Mar 10, 2016 12:08:23 GMT -5
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Post by legendrockranch on Mar 10, 2016 13:48:28 GMT -5
Oh no...Hope no one is seeing this as an argument but as a constructive conversation. That is what I see it as. Our breed has two different types/sizes of cattle caused by a mutation. Granted they are all Dexters yet we continue to lump them all together in one size range when we know they are for the most part distinct differences size wise. We note the differences in color, horned or polled, yet their is no delineation for carrier or non-carrier, that goes for both PHA and Chondro. Standards or guidelines, call it what you like, before there was no test for chondro. Now that we have a test shouldn't we be moving forward instead of spinning our wheels in the past?
Barb
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hoperefuge
member
Milking our Dexters in the mountains of KY since 2007
Posts: 101
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Post by hoperefuge on Mar 10, 2016 14:09:39 GMT -5
It has been constructive, Barb! Just hoping it stays that way. Kim
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Post by kansasdexters on Mar 10, 2016 16:46:56 GMT -5
The Dexter Cattle Society (DCS) Breed Standard: www.dextercattle.co.uk/breed-info/breed-standard/From the link above, the current Dexter Breed Standard for stature, in the U.K., is as follows: Bulls: Between 42 and 48 inches (106 and 121 cm) at the rump Cows: Between 38 and 44 inches (96 and 111 cm) at the rump It appears that the DCS is now using a range of 6-inches, between a specified minimum height and maximum height, for both cows and bulls. It doesn't really matter though, because there is no requirement to test and report Chondro-carrier/non-carrier status. Until that time comes, if it ever does, a minimum height and a maximum height recommended for cows and bulls of the Dexter breed will just have to do. It's just a guide, it's not a true breed standard. However, as long as people have a guide that lets them know approximately what the size of a mature Dexter cow or a mature Dexter bull should be, isn't that enough??
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