Chondro carrier -- should I buy?

[cddexter]

Hi Mike. sheesh, now I have to go through the post and count to see what you got excited about. I still prefer my nine word reply to your bulldog birth problem tho. (we seem to have lost the emoticons, darn. well, consider a big cheesy grin here). c.

[legendrockranch]

c, the emoticons are still there. When you are replying to someone above the post to the far right you will see one smiley face. If you click that others will come up.

There are several new ones also. this is one I hope we don't use to often.

Barb

[Gorignak]

Not "excited"....rather, impressed with your distillation of the day-in, day-out effort needed to "build" a sound herd.Manage the problems, breed 'em, watch 'em, keep the good ones, and breed 'em again.

Unfortunately....the long answer follows. Our situation addresses this posts core question, and highlights your softly stated reasoning......You do get long calves from short/long matings. And, they often have exemplary traits.....so go for it.

pardon...it is "story book time" for thems that asked this question.

[Gorignak]

Here is the result of a chondro positive and chondro negative mating...in fact, here are 4 examples from the same pair of cattle. The reason I post this, more novices will read this than current "experts" It is for them that the examples, questions, and maybe answers,  are posed.


OZ....the great and mighty OZ..... an 8 year old, 40", tested Chondro positive bull. A Minoan prince and gentleman. Not a mean bone in his body, he can be scratched from head to toe, and will knock you over for more.



Dorothy...a 42" tested, 7 yr old,Chondro negative cow. Wily, smart. Dorothy has a calf easier than sneezing. She has had 6 flawless births.


Dorothy and Oz were sold to a person who wanted to start a herd of Dexters....so far, so good. He was left to his own devices, and so the "sins of omission" surfaced. He received the basic sales pitch, both from his research and the actual seller. He was told that they were pedigreed...His mistake was to not look at the pedigrees. Oz and Dorothy were brother and sister, a year apart. At least the seller had the respect to sell him a non chondro, and a chondro, so that he would not have any immediate problems. He was told that Dexters could survive on far worse pasture than most cows, and their hay requirements were far, far less. He took that to heart...his pasture was miserable, and he fed them only the worst Arkansas, over mature fescue hay available. Survive...they did, and far better that other cattle would have done. But, it took its toll.

I know nothing of the first two bull calves, which were eaten by the previous owner. Their last 4 calves make up our herd now.The folks here have helped with their comments on the incestuous mating...and I have come to realize that it was far from a terrible problem, and has worked out quite nicely.The "line breeding" has unearthed some exemplary traits.

Sheila......NONE prettier. A bit light in the loins, she has a classic "cow" look. Beautiful lady face sets off a perfect mini-cow frame....nothing out of proportion. She is a very small 36" shorty. She is 3 years old, so probably full grown . We know she is chondro positive because she was allowed, by her previous owner, to be bred by OZ, and had a bulldog calf..... Sheila gave us 2 gallons of milk a day for 2 months, and now gives 1.5 gallons a day, after 5 months. Her teats are perfect stalactites and she is a DREAM to milk....she is bulletproof, unflappable, sedate and friendly. A home milk cow to-die-for. I'll take 20 more please......LOOK at the udder


SHORT AND LONG...DOROTHY AND SHEILA.  Mother and Daughter !! Folks, this is what it is all about. Quick applause for Alana's photo ability


Matilda.....Next in line, 2 yrs old, and as certainly chondro positive as Sheila...not tested yet, BUT....36" tall and built for the roller-derby. Wide set thick legs in the front and a beefy rear, she is massive where Sheila is gracile. She conveys the same sense of proportion as her daddy.....big, wide, and strong. Mattie is more reactive to her surroundings, and slow to warm to a friendly gesture.


Sheila looks like her mom and acts like her dad. Mattie looks like the bull, and acts like Dorothy, the Alpha cow.....go figure.


Little Burp.....He was born the day we picked up the cattle, and is 5 weeks shy of 1 year old in the picture...He is laid-back to the point of being totally disinterested with all the pasture politics. We are unsure whether genetics, or an early tumble set his one front leg a bit askew. Both front feet are pronated, probably from defective knee joint alignment. His hooves wear to the inside, more than the outside. So, he is destined for the freezer. He is growing fast and in great health otherwise.


Sassafrass.....She is the product of our effort...a complete change in diet....minerals....and overall attention paid to the cattle's condition. She was born, 45 lbs, on May 11, and she has gained over 2 lbs a day since then. She gleams in the sunlight like jade. She is, soon to be tested, obviously a non chondro, and, well ....The Color? , yeah, we were surprised. Alana came up from checking on the cow, with this mix of worry and puzzlement on her face...I braced for the worst......"That calf isn't black, dad.".
Sassafrass represents the parting of ways with the idea that "Dexters can make it on poor pasture and hay" . Quality Dexters require ALL the attention that any other breed needs, they just reward you a bit more for that effort.


The eventual point, added to this thread, of this drawn-out presentation, is that the mating of a non chondro, and a chondro positive Dexter has produced 4 entirely different calves. While we would like to believe some hand in the outcome.....It is, each time, a roll of the genetic dice.

Go for it....have fun.....I am. Sorry, more than the allotted 250 words.

[Deleted]

I do get a little defensive about chondro-carriers and this goes back to my first experience with it.

We were half way home with our load of 7 Dexters, four were carriers when I was reading on the net how chondro was lethal.
Instantly we both thought ‘what the heck’?

We knew there were shorties and longies in the breed and were very happy to be buying majority of shorties but it wasn’t until during the drive home did I read the word ‘lethal’ associated with carriers.

Of course I read more on the 11 hour drive home which calmed both our nerves down.

And I think back to that moment in time, as a newbie, and reading the word lethal for a carrier and the shock it created.

Plus I have come across a few breeders, that while they have a few carriers, they will send to the freezer every carrier born - not considering how they may grow out.

I also thought that carrier bullcalves should be steered, again this is common practice amongst breeders – irrespective of how the calf complies to the breed standard.

Until we had one born – the OH absolutely adores him, loves his look, his conformation, right from the moment the little fella stood up, hence we are keeping him as a bull to watch and see him grow to maturity.

And yet, we are having to explain ourselves with why we are doing this……………………!

We as breeders should put carriers in the light of yes, they do need a little more extra thinking around breeding and managing of weight etc – but they are part of the Dexter breed and not something that needs to be avoided or put into a ‘problematic basket’.

Lets talk about carriers in the same light and context as we do our non-carriers especially when talking to newbies to the breed.
That’s all Im asking.
The word ‘lethal’ conjures up an instant fear/problem.

If too many of us end up having a negative opinion of carriers where will that leave the breed of ‘midget moos’ in the future?

So I apologise for my rant.

PS: there are new studies now appearing that are also linking osteoarthritis to inflammation

PSS: Go Gorignak !!!

[tarsallat]

Sorry Gorignak for your bulldog calf, read your story of the saga on its thread. Pretty unfair of someone to sell a carrier bred to a carrier, stupid to let it happen in the first place, and unethical to sell your problem on. spose though its hard to keep the bull away from the cow, and sometimes just easier to let it happen than prevent it. Just have to keep those carrier cows and heifers away from carrier bulls. Just read on the UK chat group of a heifer bulling at 11.5 wks, and another that got in calf at 4 mths, 2 others in calf at 5 mths, so just have to be so carefull keeping carrier bulls away from anything carrier female, of all ages.
Lindon, osteoarthritis happens because of wear and tear on joints, inflammation happens because of osteoarthritis.

[lakeportfarms]

Lindon,

Well said. Not to get into the chondro/non-chondro argument again (Hello Kirk where have you been?) but I've found the hard core non-chondro folks are fond of the "Lethal" description and it makes it's way into anything chondro. We all know how to manage our herds well enough to avoid it if we so choose, and the good breeders will take the time to explain it to the new owners. Our chondro bull (11 years old) consistently throws 30 lb. calves out of the non-chondo cows. I think we have manure piles larger than some of the calves born on our farm. That's the farthest thing from lethal you can get in calving.

Nice photos Mike, they bring out the best of your herd and help others thinking about starting their own herd understand why we love the breed (and many of us the shorties) as we do.

Hans

[Gorignak]

Yeah Hans...I have evolved....I even skin and cook my meat now....But, I just can't get rid of OZ. I'm going to get him a few more ladies and keep him a couple of more years.....the shorty in the picture gave us 2 gal/day on her first lactation. I prefer the freedom from Chondro, but want shorter cows. NICE udder on your "for sale" bull's dam....bit too Lucifer for me, and it would get cut in our woods....but a joy to look at. Oz has sired beautiful daughters. What am I to expect from Mattie...she is far more stocky and built heavier.....her legs are 20% thicker than Sheila's.....and they are set 20% wider than Sheila's, both front and back. Looks like a "wide track" Pontiac.

PLEASE ..... SOMEONE....TAKE A REVERSE PICTURE. A SHORT COW WITH HER LONG HEIFER....THAT WILL DO IT FOR EVERYONE. The picture of Dorothy and Sheila will do more for Dexter appreciation than all we can say....Sheila is so perfect a little cow.....I can't argue with having them.

Lindon has touched a very sore spot....HOW MANY OF US NEWBIES HAVE LEARNED ENOUGH TO GET DEXTERS...THEN HEARD THE "REST OF THE STORY" AND WONDERED IF WE MADE THE RIGHT DECISION?? I had to make a quick decision on getting our herd....did the research, and then figured out what I had gotten myself into. Our worst, and now best fears were realized....VERY quickly.

[Deleted]

I never ever thought of that - taking pics on the weekend of my much adored carrier mum with her 9 mth old daughter.

Actually she is my outta nowhere dun dexter and her black haired longie daughter

Also have another shortie mum with her longie son - head shots are my avatar - but Bailey is only 5 weeks old. May have to wait until his 6 mths for a family pic.

[cddexter]

okay, Mike, I'm up for the challenge.

So, how do we find a way to explain to a newbie in true terms just what the issues are, without resorting to cutsie euphemisms that don't really explain anything, and without putting people off? I've given this a lot of thought over the years, and it seems to me in all other species, cute overrides genetic issues. People simply don't care their Persian cats have breathing problems, along with pugs and bulldogs (the canine variety), or shepherds have hip problems, as do a lot of the big breeds where the weight is more than the animal can withstand. Doesn't stop people buying them, even with the knowledge. Fainting goats is another: who'd want something that 'dies' at the first sign of trouble, rather than flight or fight? Lots of people.

If we don't use the accurate scientific term 'lethal', how do we tell people honestly what the risks are? I'm not for something vague, like oh, they carry a gene that might cause trouble, so to be safe just don't breed two shorties together. (gawd, Gene, I HATE that attempt to turn them into pets) . This completely begs the issue. So, what's the answer? me.

[Deleted]

Jun 12, 2013 22:37:48 GMT -5 cddexter said:

If we don't use the accurate scientific term 'lethal', how do we tell people honestly what the risks are? I'm not for something vague, like oh, they carry a gene that might cause trouble, so to be safe just don't breed two shorties together. (gawd, Gene, I HATE that attempt to turn them into pets) . This completely begs the issue. So, what's the answer? me.

How about a little more information around it. Homozygenous chondrodysplasia is lethal to the unborn calf.
Heterozygous chondrodysplasia is not and they are termed shorties, dwarfs, carriers.

To avoid the chance ( and I say chance, because it's only a 25% chance) of a dead calf called a bulldog calf, it's recommended that you don't breed a carrier (shortie) to another carrier.

And follow through with the only absolute way to know a carrier, is to DNA test which is as simple as pulling tail hairs.

( carrier is the scientific term for a shortie. To be absolute, they are BD1 carriers)

How would that be?

And let's not begin with the argument of pets vs 'livestock' please

[lakeportfarms]

Lindon,

That's how we do it. It takes a bit more effort to those who might have slept through science class, but eventually we distill it down to "Short to Short may give you problems, pull tail hairs to be sure". Frankly there are a lot more complicated issues with owning cattle than chondrodysplasia is, and if they don't get it perhaps we shouldn't sell to them. We'll never cover the multitude of unregistered/fallen off the pedigree Dexters out there that may be carriers, but those aren't our customers either. If they were, why do I spend $100 or so/animal genotyping and testing for everything? I will admit that we probably have more than our share who come to our farm, learn all about the various things, and then choke on the price and then go somewhere else to buy theirs. The cheaper the better folks, well, they deserve to get burned sometimes...you can't police everybody.

[otf]

Jun 12, 2013 18:08:06 GMT -5 Gorignak said:

PLEASE ..... SOMEONE....TAKE A REVERSE PICTURE. A SHORT COW WITH HER LONG HEIFER....THAT WILL DO IT FOR EVERYONE.

Here are two chondro-carrier cow with non-chondro heifer calves:

[Gorignak]

It's easy to see where the first picture is going....We put duck eggs under broody hens....farm humor....the expression when the ducks go in the water for the first time I can see the hilarity in a calf, taller than the cow, trying to nurse.

Anyway....I do want to comment on the observation that my pictures of the carrier/non carrier pairings served to show off my herd well.....NOT the intent. I am self confident enough, that I don't feel the need to beg approval with a self serving show-and-tell.
You have a discussion worth having. I, for one, wish that chondro would disappear....and that the breed would generally stay below 40", and exhibit all the characteristics that make them so useful.....Not to be. I wanted to display to the novice just what complexity awaits them as they navigate the breed. Hans IS ABSOLUTELY correct....some people should avoid the complications. They just don't have the mental chops. I certainly feel challenged, but have mastered far more complex projects....I know that we will manage.

THERE WILL NEVER....NOT FOR ONE SECOND.... be the slightest possibility that all parties will trend altruistic, and abandon arguments that are favorable to their current economic situation...OR....You are going to fight to hold on to what you have, and try to gain more. For some, it is inclusion of chondro.....for others, it is exclusion.
If we can also INCLUDE some measure of discussion of the individual economic impact of the POS vs NON  argument.... we will go a long way to making the argument seem more reasonable.

I don't have a dog in this fight....yet. It will be 5 years minimum, before I can "sell" a cow that was bred, calved, raised and intended for sale. I still have choices to make. I find chondro an added difficulty to a very full plate, but manageable. I do see the immense value to us that are not going to ship cattle between countries, or even travel more than halfway across the country to acquire stock, to use all the genetics in our region. THAT WILL CERTAINLY INVOLVE USING CHONDRO POSITIVE ANIMALS. I will aim for non chondro, below 40", adaptable, multi-purpose stock. I will juggle chondro for the next decade, for sure.
Where I do have some expertise is in taking the pulse of the novice. My heart goes out to them, and to the cattle that suffer from a "less than candid" exchange of information. Believe me....I am one, and I own some.

The circus is in town....it is off to the AGM early tomorrow morning.....

PS.... an afterthought.... As I first digested the implications of chondro, and was forced to investigate further, and broaden the scope of my understanding, one mitigating factor became evident. This is not "cut-and-paste" Angus checkers....this is a complex chess game of a very varied breed. One has to enjoy the diversity for it to make sense at all. There are a limited number of Dexter owners who want a ....one size, one shape, one color herd. At least, it seems that way from what I have read here. Long, short, or both, it seems that most here enjoy the genetic roulette a varied herd offers....Yes...No ??

[Gorignak]

A slight aside.....
OTF...is that universal udder size in your herd. Have you ever milked one out at peak production. I got 2 gal/ day from a heifer and you couldn't see her udder when it was full !! I would have to avoid udders like that, due to the rugged conditions my cows encounter....but, that looks like a lot of $$ milk to me.