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Post by watervalley on Jun 11, 2013 7:21:10 GMT -5
Hello,
I am new to this board. My wife and I are attempting to start a small herd. We purchased a registered bull calf that is PHA and Chondro non carrier from a local breeder. We trust him and have heard nothing but good feedback regarding his business practices. Along with the bull calf, he offered to sell me a bred cow that is due at the end of December. She is a chondro carrier. Is that a bad thing if I breed her to a non carrier bull? It is a good deal, but I don't know if being a cerrier is "The Scarlet Letter". Will that hurt any future sales if she is in the pedigree? I thought about just buying her and using her offspring for meat or dairy and getting a seperate chondro non carrier heifer later. Thanks for any advice!
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Post by midhilldexters on Jun 11, 2013 8:12:22 GMT -5
Welcome WaterValley, Do you know if the Carrier animal you are considering is bred to a Carrier or non carrier bull? You need to know that first. Then you have to decide if you want to have a lethal gene in your breeding program, decide if you want to test every calf from the carrier animal BEFORE you sell it or breed it, be able to educate future buyers if you are selling carrier animals. So long as you are educated on all the aspects of owning a carrier animal (including any heath issues they may get), then its you that has to make the decision. There are many breeders that have both and I am sure they will offer advice. Good luck and let us know what you decide. Welcome again and glad you decided on Dexters.
Carol K
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Post by watervalley on Jun 11, 2013 8:16:11 GMT -5
Thank you Carol. The bull is a noncarrier. That is why I am considering the possibility of purchasing her. You mentioned health issues. Are there any health issues that arise from a carrier animal? Thanks Again!
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Post by midhilldexters on Jun 11, 2013 9:23:23 GMT -5
Well if she is bred to a non carrier that is a good thing. Regarding the health issues, firstly let me say I do not have carrier animals so can't give you personal experience. From what some owners have said, carriers can sometimes be prone to arthritis at an early age due to their bone formation. Some have issues breathing due to their regular sized organs stuffed into a smaller body cavity. All personal choice when it comes to it, you will gets lots of advice but only you can decide what is good for you and the future of your farm.
Carol K
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Post by ctownson on Jun 11, 2013 9:41:29 GMT -5
Carol has given you good feedback. We started with only non-chondro animals but have added a number of chondro carriers over the past three years. Now, about 1/3 of our herd are chondro carriers. I can tell you that we love them, as do many of our customers (they are usually the favorites in a pasture when someone comes to visit the farm!). Our bull is long-legged so nothing to worry about there, as would be the case with the animal you are considering. We have not seen any health differences, but then again none of our animals are that old either. We have not had any differences in calving ease between long and short legged. We are taking two chondro carriers to the AGM this week, and three long-legged. Pictures of them are on our home page if you want to compare them. www.beavertreefarm.com
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Post by watervalley on Jun 11, 2013 12:58:58 GMT -5
Thank you both for the information. I definitely feel better about the decision that I must make. I think I will take a chance on her. It is the most economical way to get my herd started. God Bless!
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Post by Deleted on Jun 11, 2013 17:26:12 GMT -5
Then you have to decide if you want to have a lethal gene in your breeding program Now this is where the line has to be drawn. It is scare-mongering and I wish it would stop. There is absolutely nothing wrong with Chondro-carriers, actually the physcial appearance of the chondro-carrier is what attracts people to the Dexter breed in the first place. Otherwise why not choose Lowlines or miniature Galloways or something other than the Dexter if one is so afraid of the chondro-carrier! Geezzzz! Education of future buyers is part and parcel of breeding any animal and what health issues may a carrier get that a non-carrier wont? Arthritis is caused by inflammation which attacks the cartilage/joints – not the bone structure. Arthritis can afflict a non-carrier with the same percentage as a carrier. Breathing issues could possibly occur if you had a dexter who displayed the 'extreme' in the physical appearance of a carrier, which is undesirable to the standard anyways. We have a lovely natured girl who is one of those, and so far she breaths as normal as the non-carriers do. Sorry for being defensive, but comments about Chondro-carriers always seem to be made in the negative context similar to that of a calf with a fifth leg or second head or something.
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Post by midhilldexters on Jun 11, 2013 18:11:19 GMT -5
Lindon, I didn't pick the name for it, talk to the scientists that describe it that way. I believe this paper is by an Aussie and mentions it as lethal. www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9578757 i www.dextercattleforsale.co.uk/. Here is a link to the British Dexter chat Boards, I would think they have their share of Chondro carriers. They are not afraid to say that some of their animals suffer from arthritis. Use the search box, type in arthritis, and read some of the 6 pages where they talk about their carriers suffering at an early age. Sorry I didn't make it up, I tried to answer the enquiry to the best of my ability. Carol K
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Post by cddexter on Jun 11, 2013 20:46:37 GMT -5
lindon, chondra affects cartilage, that's why there's an arthritis issue. Probably Peter Windsor would be a good source for you (USyd). cheers, c.
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Post by wvdexters on Jun 11, 2013 21:05:04 GMT -5
Hi Watervalley,
I am glad you have found your dexters and I wish you all the joy that comes with them. They are special little cattle and I love mine. All of them. Short/tall, red/black,..... Be prepared to fall for these guys, and wait til you see that little calf. They are beyond adorable. I hope you will show us some pictures when you get everyone settled in.
If I can give you one piece of advice it is this. Everyone has opinions and their own personal likes and dislikes. Find what YOU like and enjoy them. Read and learn about them so YOU can make good choices and decisions for them. Keep in touch and let us know how it's going. Dexters are special. I know you are going to love them.
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Post by watervalley on Jun 11, 2013 21:11:13 GMT -5
Thank you wvdexters. I can't wait to get them to the farm. They are arriving July 1st. I will submit pictures.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 11, 2013 23:09:04 GMT -5
lindon, chondra affects cartilage, that's why there's an arthritis issue. Probably Peter Windsor would be a good source for you (USyd). cheers, c. I will read up on it for sure. All I have read on Chondro is the 'shortening' of the bone.......nothing mentioned inflammation and the cartilage. But will certainly read my little heart out on the subject to find out why BD1 carrier would make an individual more prone to cartilage degeneration than would otherwise. Im more than aware of how arthritis is the secondary sympton of inflammation (an autoimmune disease) - hence my need and that of half my family, for immune suppressants for the rest of our lives to hopefully offset it.
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Post by tarsallat on Jun 12, 2013 7:49:07 GMT -5
Dwarf dexters have structural health issues just like dwarf people(little people). Same reasons, skeleton can't cope with the extra strain of weight on the chondro joints, that's why you should keep their weight down, don't let a short leg dexter get fat(especially the heavier bulls) if you want it to live to a good age. Same as breathing issues, dwarf people can have breathing issues, lungs cramped in a smaller space. Autoimmune arthritis is very different to osteoarthritis. Different cause and different symptoms. Maybe to keep everyone happy we should call chondro "semi-lethal" ie only lethal in the homozygous form.
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Post by cddexter on Jun 12, 2013 10:24:06 GMT -5
Lindon: if you check out the chondro article on the ADCA website dextercattle.org under genetics, I included photos of the difference between the two in how the chondrocytes are organized which is what makes the difference in the bone. As far as science knows, the same number of chondrocytes, just organized in the normal, and disorganized in the bulldog. In the first case, they all 'line up' in a series of columns, sort of nose to tail, in a manner referred to as palisading. In the case of a bulldog, there is no organization at all, and the chondrocytes simply collect in a lump, rather like silt collecting at the bottom of a pond. That's why there's so little bone length. Think of a 'house of cards' vs. '52-pickup'. In the carrier, some of the chondrocytes line up, some don't so you get a half and half effect. This makes for very dense bones with few airholes (think of those pinprick holes in the bones your dog digs up). Because the chondrocytes are formed in the cartilage, cartilage is involved.
Tarsallat has it right. And, the more severely affected, the more the animal is likely to have the problems. I've always wondered just what it is that makes the difference in affect. One of these days....
I think you are stuck with the lethal label. Science defines lethal as being homo at the locus. I know a lot of people are offended, especially if they really like the dwarf. That's where all those cute euphemisms remained in play once dwarfism was known--long before the gene was identified. Euphemisms are okay as long as everyone is on the same page. If I say 'poo', we all know what I'm talking about, but in the case of our cattle, shortleg and longleg don't really tell you much, and certainly are meaningless to newbies without the proper scientific explanation. Unfortunate.
Our girls are still special, tho.
the original question was should this person buy a dwarf. The answer is: depends on your opinion of carriers. I'd probably go for her if her other traits were good, and then, because I chose a long time ago not to breed dwarfs, but small non-dwarfs instead, I'd look at the non-dwarf daughters. If their quality was so-so, I'd maybe keep one and sell the cow and any calves on and work to fix the faults in the daughter. If the daughters were drop dead gorgeous, I'd keep her and her daughters, and hope for more heifers. Depends on why you want Dexters, what you are doing with them, how many you can or want to keep, and what your breeding choices are, and even to a large extent, what the market is in your area. Cheers, c.
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Post by Gorignak on Jun 12, 2013 11:14:35 GMT -5
Well, Carol.....when we cut down to the answer....124 words....Pretty Good.And, (from my LIMITED mental resource pool of Dexter knowledge) The right answer...At least, that is how I would do it. We raise hogs...Tamworths, and rabbits...Flemish Giants... both, also purebred. What smooth sailing it is to bask in a 90 day pregnancy, and have 6-10 genetic mash-ups to choose from. Cattle are a headache....I like Ice Cream and Cheese....so, here we go. ONE SHOT per year, and from my limited birthing from the same parents.....all over the map anyway..... Anyway.....thanks Carol for the spot-on how-to. Not bad Carol....124 words.
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