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Post by otf on Jun 13, 2013 9:22:42 GMT -5
Mike, we don't milk any of our cows so I can't tell you available quantities. The pictures I posted above are from awhile back. Those two cows were among our first Dexters; they were half sisters. Always had large udders; their calves never had problems nursing though. Here's the third half sister (Pixie, the smallest (38" ) with her non-chondro calf: We still have some of their bloodlines in our present cows, though not the same pendulous udders. Here's an example, along with an udder photo (grand-daughter of Pixie, sired by Brambeldel Redberry Prince):
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Post by cddexter on Jun 13, 2013 9:32:08 GMT -5
Great pictures, Mike. You've pointed out something that should have you doing the 'oh, wow, we won the udder lottery' dance. High, tight udders that produce lots of milk are the dream udders. They have fabulous suspension, and will remain in good condition for the life of the cow. I'll bet if you check her rear attachment, it's quite far up. The lower the attachment, the droopier the rear attachment is, and this is not dependent on the quantity of milk produced.
When you get to that point,. since you are keeping milking records, let us know what the 305-day lactation average is for the heifer. That's the magic number of days used for annual production figures. In the real world, it's this annual production number that's used to reference a cow's performance.
Gale: beautiful! cheers, c.
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Gorignak
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Post by Gorignak on Jun 13, 2013 9:37:50 GMT -5
Pixie looks perfect to me. We are going to milk about 20 A2/A2 and sell milk and artisanal cheese. We plan on a thriving business selling home milk cows.....second calf after one cycle with us. FOR THAT PURPOSE, chondro positive, mini-moo milkers fit the bill. We are close to making a pact with ourselves to never, EVER, sell a cow to a situation where it will live alone. We have learned that there needs to be some social interaction, or the creature becomes "less" than what it should be. Plus, share milking diminishes the available milk, even if it is for 2-3 months, and then weaning. I have bottle fed, from the start, my last calf...no fun, no future, heartbreak only follows....all ours will get a couple of months of milk....EVEN IF I HAVE TO GET JERSEY NURSE COWS, and transfer. My neighbor has 4 Jersey heifer calves on one good nurse cow. Pixie is perfect size, perfect udder, for what we are looking for.....We would like to see 2.5 gal - 3 gal / day from each cow. She looks like mine...and very traditional, if I can say.
THANKS...........
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Post by Gorignak on Jun 13, 2013 9:42:48 GMT -5
"Luck of the Irish" Carol......sober up just long enough to buy a winning lottery ticket.
Or, as I told the kids growing up, to every mystery or unusual event...."The lepreuchans did it"
Thanks..........
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Post by lakeportfarms on Jun 13, 2013 10:10:47 GMT -5
Pixie looks perfect to me. We are going to milk about 20 A2/A2 and sell milk and artisanal cheese. We plan on a thriving business selling home milk cows.....second calf after one cycle with us. FOR THAT PURPOSE, chondro positive, mini-moo milkers fit the bill. We are close to making a pact with ourselves to never, EVER, sell a cow to a situation where it will live alone. We have learned that there needs to be some social interaction, or the creature becomes "less" than what it should be. Plus, share milking diminishes the available milk, even if it is for 2-3 months, and then weaning. I have bottle fed, from the start, my last calf...no fun, no future, heartbreak only follows....all ours will get a couple of months of milk....EVEN IF I HAVE TO GET JERSEY NURSE COWS, and transfer. My neighbor has 4 Jersey heifer calves on one good nurse cow. Pixie is perfect size, perfect udder, for what we are looking for.....We would like to see 2.5 gal - 3 gal / day from each cow. She looks like mine...and very traditional, if I can say.
THANKS...........
Mike,
Great plan, but get ready to open your wallet! I can't produce enough A2/A2 shorties to fill the demand for them. I'm forced trying to run 2 different herds with A2/A2 long legged and short legged bulls bred to A1/A2 shortie and long legged cows to get 50% A2/A2, with a 50% chance of a heifer, with a 50% chance of a shortie after all that. Now, if I sell all my A2/A2 calves, I never increase my A2/A2 cows and am stuck with trying to do it using A1/A2 cows. I have about 6 A2/A2 cows right now.
It will be interesting to see what the AGM auction brings for particular animals depending on their A2 status, chondro status, etc... Right now it looks like we'll be picking up some additional acreage behind us so we can maintain enough pasture to keep the numbers we have to produce what we need, so herd expansion is a little too expensive for us now (not to mention there's just two of us and we both have real jobs, albeit I'm self employed and Sheril is a teacher with summers off).
I've even resorted to starting to test our Scottish Highland fold for A2 milk status, people are so interested in A2. A few of our Highlands that we've milked produce 3-4 gallons/day with nearly 10% milkfat, though it is very naturally homogenized and doesn't separate like the Dexter milk does. We have 8 Highland calves right now under 2 months and all are spoken for if they test A2/A2, including 2 bulls. We used to cross Mike with the Highlands, and some friends of ours have a little chondro High/Dex cow that is 37" and does 2-1/2 gallons/day. She eats next to nothing, and when they go out to open their milking parlor she lines up behind the other Highland they milk, to wait her turn for their 10 and 12 year old girls to hand milk her.
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Post by Gorignak on Jun 13, 2013 10:38:11 GMT -5
HOW did I know this already... !!! It is obvious and unsettling. I have been surfing these waves for more than 40 years now. There is probably a solid bet to be made on A1/A2....not quite the payback, but easier to do. I am tested A2/A2 bull and A1/A2 cow....with 3 heifers on the ground from them. Good start for an idiot.
Anyway....I have a pig farrowing that I have to move.....my favorite hot afternoon....But....THE CHONDRO IN A CROSS REMAINS DORMANT DOESN'T IT ?? It is only Dex/Dex that produce s a dwarf ??
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Post by lakeportfarms on Jun 13, 2013 11:18:40 GMT -5
Anyway....I have a pig farrowing that I have to move.....my favorite hot afternoon....But....THE CHONDRO IN A CROSS REMAINS DORMANT DOESN'T IT ?? It is only Dex/Dex that produce s a dwarf ??
No, you'll get a "shortie" High/Dex, with the same characteristics as the Dexter. And the same issues breeding two carriers together. This is Ruth, a 50/50 Highland/Dexter cross. She's a year old here, and is the one the girls milk now. These are our 75% Highland/Dexter bulls, both A2/A2, both chondro carriers. We're breeding them now to our Highland cows for their first calves on the ground next spring. They're a little over 2 now and 33" hip height.
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Post by midhilldexters on Jun 13, 2013 12:43:10 GMT -5
My experience is totally the opposite to Hans and his Region, and maybe it is more Regional than anything? After 6 years as Director for the NE I think I only got maybe four people requesting Chondro carrier animals. Yet my Region has plenty of breeders that have carrier animals, my view on that stat is that most enquiries came from new people getting involved in the breed and they had done their research, choosing to not get involved with either lethal gene. There is also a heavy request for A2 and polled here. I still think many newcomers haven't done as much research as they should before they buy, but we were probably all guilty of that in one way or another. I think the ADCA has worked hard to put info on the web, you just can't make people read it and possibly take it all in.
Carol K
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Post by Gorignak on Jun 13, 2013 13:47:25 GMT -5
Reply to Hans.....Picture overload......cows in birdcages.....can't process....must format brain....Gin in...pictures gone. Wasn't ready for those images, Hans.
Carol K....as long as the carrier breeders are not sent to leper colonies...I think it is in the breed's "BEST GENERAL INTEREST" to supply an overwhelming amount of information on the benefits of non-chondro genetics to "new" customers.
Folks....these customers/ people have bachelors degrees, fairly good jobs...and don't know much more than they have read in "Mother Earth News" or off the first page of a Google search. I deal with DOZENS of them a month, and have for many, many years....they haven't gotten smarter. I appreciate, respect, and applaud the folks who are dedicated enough to keep the fires burning with the carriers. IT IS NOT A GOOD IDEA TO ENCOURAGE THE CASUALLY INVOLVED to juggle the carrier gene. They fold quickly, and sell out to those even less involved. It is a downward cascade of indifference....with a path that leads/led to MY back door..... I'm in it for the long haul. I wasn't burned too bad. We recovered well....Not every story has such an ending.
AND (TO GET IT OFF MY CHEST) PLEASE STOP !!!! TELLING PEOPLE THAT THESE COWS CAN MAKE IT ON NEXT TO NOTHING FOR FEED. PLEASE PHRASE THE EASE OF OWNING/MAINTAINING DEXTERS IN THE CONTEXT OF GENERAL CATTLE MANAGEMENT....GOOD PASTURE....SOUND NUTRITIONAL MANAGEMENT.....SUPPLEMENT WHERE FEED QUALITY IS EXCEPTIONALLY POOR. The main fault in this regard is the "press"....how many articles have, "will survive on pasture that no other cow will eat", in the first four paragraphs. The breed has been promoted, maybe over-promoted, and these fallacies are entrenched in the general perception. THEY ARE EASIER, THEY ARE GENTLER, THEY ARE HARDIER, AND THEY ARE MORE FUN... But, sound nutritional management MUST be stressed to the uninitiated or they are operating LITERALLY..... and good cows get stuck with very poor nutrition. Amen...... It took me a year (this July 16) to overcome ALL of the problems in a 5 head herd that stemmed from overblown hype and distracting hyperbole.
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Post by lakeportfarms on Jun 13, 2013 14:38:13 GMT -5
Not sure what you mean about cows and birdcages Mike? Anyway, these High/Dex shorties really do eat far less feed, based on our experience. As do the chondro Dexters. Quantity does not equal quality. I never said they don't get quality feed, they still need that to produce milk and so they don't dry up prematurely. When I raced bicycles competitively I could consume 10K calories a day due to my activity level and I still couldn't gain weight. It's a bit different now, I'm a easy keeper compared to then.
Carol, I'm not so sure it's a research or regional difference, but we have had many come to our farm convinced that they do not want a chondro carrier...period. But after they have a chance to stand in the middle of a dozen cows of both chondro/non-chondro variety, they are drawn to the look and size of the chondro cows. It's the side by side comparison that convinces them. And most all of them are beginners. Most of them can understand the limitations quite well, and we're just a phone call away when the time comes to select a bull or semen when they're ready to breed them. We are keeping most all of Mike's shortie heifers this year, and will probably do so next year, so part of what we have now is an artificial shortage, but I'd love to trade anybody a few of our non-carriers for their carriers right now! I'll find them a home, or give them one here...
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Post by midhilldexters on Jun 13, 2013 16:19:46 GMT -5
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Post by Gorignak on Jun 13, 2013 18:59:10 GMT -5
Hans, I'll try this.....those "postage stamp" cows were more than I was ready for. I'm having a hard enough time digesting (pun intended) the number of pot belly pigs and fainting miniature goats that I am grinding into brats and sausage and trading for farm essentials like hay. They can be had, usually for the cost of showing up to pick them up. So, my attitude toward cute is very close to cddexter's ..... I want to stay away from "cute" and stress the working relationship these animals can have with a family. HOWEVER...I did perk up at the mention of 3+ gal/day and 10% butterfat...is there a shorthair variety??....the coat is absolutely impossible here with the heat we have from April to October. I am going to try and dissuade the purchase of carriers by the "suburban homesteading" crowd....but, only as a ruse to force a better understanding....I think the carriers are perfect for folks who want to milk a cow or two......Kudos for the follow through with the support....AI and such. I can see the selling point there...I'll not head that direction.....But, it resonates "customer support" which is my strong suit in other dealings. Lots to think about..............thanks.
Carol K....Compliments, and .many thanks to the ADCA site for our initial "crash course" in Dexter genetics.....and then the warm realization that we HAVE the ability to test for traits that were "guessed" at just a few years prior...... I think that the information is available for anyone interested enough...but, what does a Buddhist say...."There is a difference between knowing the path, and walking the path" ?? It is all just words until the manure hits the mud and you're ankle deep in it......
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Post by cddexter on Jun 13, 2013 20:26:49 GMT -5
Hans...10% BF? that's double a Jersey. Would you provide more info, please?
For a while, the ADCA had a brochure that publicly stated that Dexters gave 25% butterfat. Of course it was nonsense, and what one person got from share milking with the calf, but it was out there, and caused a lot of disappointment when the newbie's cow didn't match up.
I can see where in the north of Scotland one would want high butterfat to ward off the cold. Did you know that Highlands have two coats of hair, and that they are electrically charged opposite, so when the wind blows, it riffles the coat and causes the coats to 'stick' together, making a tighter, more weatherproof, warmer overcoat? How neat it that! cheers, c.
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Post by legendrockranch on Jun 13, 2013 20:31:23 GMT -5
Mike, I am so glad you decided to stay with Dexters. Your beginning journey with the breed was a tough learning experience. Your comments on the trials and tribulations you went through, I felt was a HUGH insight to some people of what more needs to be done in order to prevent new owners from going through the same thing. The breed is fortunate, you stayed with them, some people don't.
Those that read this forum find the help they need to continue on. I like Carol K always send new folks to the ADCA website to read and learn about the genetic defects that can effect our breed. While I have stated my comments in favor of mandatory testing and listing of animals that are carriers or non-carriers, many oppose it. I realize that this will not stop incidences such as yours but perhaps help more people make better breeding decisions as they move forward with the breed.
Personally I do not own any carriers but realize that people like them. I just feel terrible though when a new owner buys Dexters and one of their first experiences is a bulldog calf. Which was totally preventable. So what are you thoughts on this? Is there a better way we should be doing things?
Barb
edited to add the word "not" own any carriers
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Post by Deleted on Jun 13, 2013 21:55:12 GMT -5
I don’t think there is anyway, anyone can stop the unscrupulous from doing what they do.
And then there are those who have made honest mistakes – accidents occur but one may not know this has happened until they parent verify and the lab comes back with ummmmm no, not the sire and / or dam.
Buying a cow in calf is always a gamble unless you really know the person you are buying from – and then that isn’t any guarantee of a trouble-free sale either.
I can relay one of these incidents where the buyer returned to buy from well-established, long-term breeders.
Picked up his heifer girl only to discover 7 months later she was pregnant. This carrier ‘heifer’ calved at 16 mths of age.
Upon parent verification for registration, the sire ended up not being the herd sire, but was it was determined it must have been one of the steers that had since been sent to the abbatoir.
Was this steer a carrier too? Who will know? The calf appears to be a carrier.
So I don’t think there is anything one can do to stop something like this happening again and again whether it is by accident (careless, yes) or intentional.
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