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Post by hollydzie on Jan 4, 2014 8:30:42 GMT -5
rawlingsdexter & djdewetsa thank you both for continuing to come to this board despite some peoples rude comments. Sorry for that, I hope you will both continue to post. I enjoy reading what you have to say.
rewlingsdexter I know you have been treated rudely in the past and now djdewetsa seems to be "enjoying" some of the rude behavior.
Of course you both have herds with beautiful, sound animals. That speaks for itself!
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Post by mike on Jan 4, 2014 8:55:24 GMT -5
A lethal gene solves its own/our problem ultimately . The gene causing all this discussion is not classic lethal. The offspring live, breed and give a great deal of fun. Poor breeding selection can cause an ugly not very nice dead calf to be aborted. If you look at other cattle breeds worldwide and respective socities they are looking at markers for lethal genes(?alleles)that cause abortion and absorption of embryo calves. At one time every Dexter aborted or deformed was put down to the bulldog gene. Indeed if a cow gapped or took a long time to get back in calf it was blamed on the bulldog gene. We all know better these days.
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Post by cddexter on Jan 4, 2014 15:44:56 GMT -5
Come on, guys, unless you have something NEW to contribute, why are we rehashing all the old bs. There is never going to be consensus. Leave each other alone.
If you are pro-dwarf, you'll just keep posting about cute and docile and small, and early finishing--and more marketable to the amateur.
If you dislike using a lethal gene for cosmetic effect, you'll just keep posting about bulldogs and breathing problems, and inconsistencies.
Give it a rest. c.
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Post by truth on Jan 6, 2014 8:10:37 GMT -5
I agree, but the matter of lethal genetics effects all dexter cattle breeders . Some may find interesting in Hoard's Dairyman by Bennet Cassel, Jan 4 2014. Haplotypes affecting fertility. The paper gives summary of advances in identifying lethal haplotypes in world cattle breeds. Identification can help inform breeding decisions. 'JH1' was interesting as it is established that many UK Dexters have Jersey blood. The publication is online.
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Post by cddexter on Jan 7, 2014 12:42:58 GMT -5
Mike, according to the Herd Books, after 'sire unknown', and 'unknown Dexter sire', the two most frequent 'not from two registered Dexter parents' crosses were Jersey at 60 and Angus at 56. Then there were four teens with English Dairy, Guernsey, Friesian, and dairy/continental beef crosses, and all the rest--16 different breeds and crosses of them-- were single digits. I haven't taken the time to follow up the influence, but was advised by Don Bixby of ALBC (or whatever it's called these days) that the outcross influence in the whole English Dexter population was something like .00004%.
We can be obsessive and say this tiny fraction matters, or we can stand back and agree it doesn't. Especially since foundation Dexters didn't just come from one small area, like Galloway or Jersey, but pretty much from all over and pretty much from just about anything that was solid red or black and dwarf, with horns. Much like the pro and anti dwarf issue, this is all about perception, and personal standards (and just maybe a little bit of marketing???).
cheers, c.
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Post by djdewetsa on Jan 8, 2014 23:39:40 GMT -5
Here for every bulldog dead calf the farmer tells 20 other farmers For every cow or steer that doesn't perform a farmer would tell 20 other farmers They always say word of mouth is your best advertisement - I think it can be your worst as well.
-that is on the veld with poor growth weaning weights - poor feed coversion ratios - poor grade classification by abbatoirs for body of carcass - - feedlots that doesn't want to take Dexters because of their growth
So why don't I want to improof the breed by selecting within the breed the good caractics (like still using a small cow which is a noncarrier but gives me an excellent bull or steer ) and deselecting the bad trait marks like the carriers so that when a farmer by cows or heifers from me he is happy and that he will send other farmers back to me.
You get small cows that is non carriers - I will take some pictures and send them through as well/
Still no one has replied when do they put carrier heifers with a bull? or weaning weights still? I know you cant put them with a carrier bull because your chances for a dead calf is greater so breeders who do use this gene uses noncarrier bulls on these heifers. So by putting a non carrier bull on that small heifer you must prolong the waiting time? You cant calf a small carrier heifer normal on 24 months. However then you get a bad number/days for that heifer calfing days before calving. We call it TKP (period between calvings) Yes in the STUD business you must have good calving periods between calving - Good is less than 364days Otherwise the calf might be to big for this small carrier heifer and you will need to get the vet? What do a vet charge over there? Do they measure pelvis in the US? Luckily I have Vet friend and they charge me only about R1000 that is about 100$ - still its a huge cut from the profit. If its a bull its a loss. (had 2 carrier heifers that calved over 24 months /2 year and both needed a vet - disappointing.
Danie
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Post by lakeportfarms on Jan 9, 2014 6:17:09 GMT -5
The carrier heifers are usually just a little shorter in height, not so much in their body size. If you're allowing the heifer to naturally wean or wean at 10 months or so she'll have reached sufficient size to breed at 15 months of age. As with any heifer, if they are weaned earlier then some adjustment should be made as to when you expose them to the bull.
I recall reading that you have average calving weights upwards of 25 kg. That is very high. This presents a greater challenge and potential loss to a breeder than almost any other situation that is controllable. Your time to babysit, and potential vet calls cost a lot of money. We pay particular importance to low birth weight bulls in our selection, as we do not want to turn our herd into one that requires constant monitoring around calving time. Since our bulls are constantly in the pasture we don't always know when they are expected to calve. Many of our cows have calved 10 months following their last calf. Our chondro bull over non-chondro heifers and cows has an average of 12-14 kg. though he has shown exceptionally low calving weights over the course of his breedings. One of our factors in selecting a bull over the carriers is a low birth weight.
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Post by truth on Jan 9, 2014 8:05:30 GMT -5
Carol, Thanks for the data. I think my referring to the halotypes causing fertility problems may have been misunderstood. It is wrong to assume that all birth or gestation problems are related to chondro . All to often in the past this has been the case. My reference to JH1 could suggest that the small ammount of Jersey blood introduced to Dexters carried this halotype into the breed. Alternatively the other breeds could have carried it in along with other lethal halotypes. A third possibility is that Dexters and other cattle breeds emerging from the pre herdbook cattle soup of the British Isles carried whole manner of halotype mutations . Some of these may still exist others have gone and others will form.
Has any move been made to screen Dexters for lethal halotypes ? would anyone wish to invest ?
I have no interest in marketing, I have Dexters as a hobby. I have long, short, non carrier short and love them all . Breeding Dexters is fascinating because of the variety of phenotypes.
You mention colour as in whole, it is well known that many early Dexters were not whole in colour. This was however a want of those that formed the registrations/herdbooks and drafted a breed description. Tolerance of white was greater for Dexters than Kerrys.
After 100 years + breeding for self colours dexters are still born with excess white. The excess white even got through the UK population bottle neck. Some people think this excess white perpetuation is due to out breeding, Guernsey mentioned in particular. I think this is rubbish. Just as I think the red/black coat mix is not an indicator of out breeding. Mind that bit off rubbish has been well put to bed.
Many folklores about cattle make good of white as an indicator of good milk yeild and some breeds/landraces had subdivisions with specific white markings . Sort of ancient genetic markers.
Has anyone had an all white Dexter? Should such an animal if off pedigree parents be allowed entry in Society/association herd books ?
Carol, thanks for reading the halotype article.
Mike
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Post by cddexter on Jan 9, 2014 12:15:48 GMT -5
Jeez, Gene. You're one of the worst offenders. Does your post show a sea change? cheers, c.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 9, 2014 15:13:26 GMT -5
We here determine the age for our first dwarfs based on their individual physical appearance. Understanding they have 20% less room for normal sized organs and then having a calf taking up some of that room has us working with the length of the body and not their age.
We also have Dexters as a hobby, not for commercial reasons, so the cost factor doesn't come into it. Their health and keeping that easy-calving aspect is more important for us.
We have one girl (non-dwarf) who had her first calf in Jan 2013 at age 2.2 yrs and she gave us another just recently on 5 Dec 2013. She is now on a rest from motherhood for 12 mths.. Half this reason is to allow her to catch-her-breath, the other half is to sync her with the others for a 3-4 week calving period from now on.
Once we are in the sync pattern, by default, our dwarfs will be 2 years of age for their first joining, so calving for the first time closer to their 3rd birthday.
Cheers Donna
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Post by djdewetsa on Jan 10, 2014 0:51:48 GMT -5
The calves that were pulled weight around 15kg. The chondro heifers are smaller in size and calving a noncarrier calf that is bigger can be a problem.
Donna is correct - They must calf later and that would be safer for the cow and calf.
Normal weaning is at 6 months for me as bulls and heifers do mature very early. If you cant take them away or separate you can end up with heifers that calf at 16 months. When heifers calf too early it can effect their normal growth / that heifer of cow will not mature as you would have liked too. And calving at 16 months might also be something for the vet and again some money too spend.
For production figure calves are weaned at 207 days - you must wean your calves at the right time then the mother have enough time to get in condition for next calving. When you wean them weigh the cow and calf then you get your calf and mother weaning ratio - % of calf weight of mothers weight - above 55% is excellent - Dexters can go as high as in the 60% which no other breed can. Why I belief the Dexter cow is superior.
Of course , farming is about money. When I worked at the agricultural department of a international bank Standard Bank I saw what happened to farmers that didn't do their sums. They end up selling everything ( South Africa, New Zealand and Australia is some of the countries that doesn't get farming grants - farmers have too make every cent count)The original question was should I buy or should I not - I gave my reasons like I am required as a stud breeder and I gave facts - I didn't lie or I didn't use word of mouth that I heard.
As I said before the Non Carrier Dexter is better for commercial farming and stud breeding while the carrier Dexter is more for a small holding or hobby farm BUT precaution must be taken when breeding is done with carriers and PLEASE do inform people when you sell a chondro animal what NOT to do that is why the Dexter cow got a very bad reputation in SA. It takes long to overturn peoples thoughts and ideas.
Danie
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Post by dexterbovinefan on Jun 9, 2015 11:41:57 GMT -5
I've been told that many chondro-carriers grow comparatively slowly and often reach maturity later. Have any of you folks familiar with raising chondro-carriers noticed this? Is it a false claim, or would many of you agree?
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Post by bruff64 on Jun 10, 2015 4:55:15 GMT -5
I have one carrier and she matured at the same rate as my non carriers. The carrier issue is no big deal in my opinion. We enjoy having the one we have as part of our herd. Raise one and make your own assumptions, learn by doing.
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Post by kansasdexters on Jun 10, 2015 8:34:40 GMT -5
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Post by Dahdo on Jun 10, 2015 9:39:23 GMT -5
We bought two carrier steers last fall to raise for beef. The older one will be about 28 months when we harvest him next month. He is finishing very well on grass alone. I will try and post a picture later.
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