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Post by truth on Jan 2, 2014 5:36:26 GMT -5
Hi Judy(legacy), You are correct that Cardiff University research showed some genetic differences in selected groups of Dexter cattle sampled mainly in UK. A variety of reasons or combinations of reason could explain the differences. I am interested in the different "types" of dexter that exist and have existed. Understanding these will help inform breeding . It is more complicated breeding Dexter cattle than other breeds, chondro( the generally accepted chat term) is only one part of the puzzle. Information is good to have. Happy New Year Mike(truth)
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Post by cddexter on Jan 2, 2014 11:22:30 GMT -5
Hi Mike, yes I do have the '69 registrations. I have an original listing, carefully folded into the 1070 HB so I don't lose it.
I think if I copied all the DCS herdbooks and made them available on line, I'd run into some serious copyright issues. Good idea, tho'. c.
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Post by truth on Jan 2, 2014 11:49:18 GMT -5
Hi Carol, Would you like copies of the 1969 herd returns,sale transfers etc i.e the documents that should have formed the 1969 Herd Book that was never published ? I found birth dates that were stated as unknown, amongst these docs. Mike
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Post by djdewetsa on Jan 3, 2014 0:27:00 GMT -5
Hi. No they couldnt know if an animal had the chondro gene as they did not do gene testing. I suspect there were alot of guess work? I think it was the Aussies that perfected the gene test and was able to identify the culprit gene. When was that?
Animals do change after 100 years as the are perfected and better animals are bred - THATS BREEDING
i THINK ITS TIME SOMEONE PUT A DEAD BULLDOG CALF ON A PIC SO THAT EVERYONE KNOWS WHY the CHONDRO GENE IS A PROBLEM AND HAVE NO PLACE IN BREEDING. IT IS A PROBLEM AND SHOULD BE CLASSIFIED BY ALL ANIMAL REGISTRATIONS AS A DEFECT AND BE BANNED IN BREEDING WHICH WILL BE HAPPENING SOON IN SA I HOPE.
I see there is no sense of giving proven facts on production of the Dexter as some are ignorant to the facts and a waste of my time in the end.
Best of luck.
Cheers
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Post by djdewetsa on Jan 3, 2014 0:46:14 GMT -5
Sorry for this - BUT think its necessary that new buyers knows the facts. The chondro carriers can cause dead calves which is a fact. The picture is a calf that had to be removed by the vet - cost me alot of money and I lost a calf - PS I bought the cow from a breeder that also think nothing is wrong by using carrier animals. PLease new buyers do not be fooled.
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Post by lakeportfarms on Jan 3, 2014 2:40:25 GMT -5
Danie, We are aware of what a homozygous chondro bulldog calf looks like. So are our purchasers of heterozygous chondro carriers. Yes, in 100 years there are breeding advances, including genetic testing that can completely avoid the photo that you post. In our case here in the United States, that test costs $10.00 when paired with another test for color, PHA, or genotyping. It is not rocket science. You use testing and measurements for your performance testing but you're posting here that you are not capable of using a simple test to determine the status of your Dexters? Then you have no business breeding Dexters and should stick to a commercial breed such as Angus or other such breed that performs well in SA.
And like it or not, if a Dexter society or organization bans chondro positive animals, a new organization will spring up and accept chondro animals for registration as there are owners of Dexters that understand genetics and are willing to utilize the advances in testing to make intelligent breeding choices because the Dexter breed is defined in large measure by it's status as a dwarf breed, like it or not.
How long do you plan to continue this rant about chondro and offend those of us who are capable of understanding how to breed around chondrodysplasia?
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Post by carragheendexters on Jan 3, 2014 5:55:56 GMT -5
The " smallest breed of European cattle Judy I just don't know where this misconception ever started. Dexters are a British breed. I will start a new thread as this misconception deserves it for new people to Dexters. regards Louise
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Post by truth on Jan 3, 2014 9:39:26 GMT -5
The gene that causes a bulldog calf in dexter cattle or some short leg dexter cattle was understood prior to the bull Red Robin. It was used to illustrate genetics at many Agricultural Colleges including the one I attended. The teacher discussed scientific papers including one published by the Royal Dublin Society :Wilson,J. 1909.Scient.Pro.R.Dubl.Soc.,12,Jan. Over the years the gene has been given many names: monster calf, bulldog calf, seal calf, Achondroplasia, Chondrodysplasia, Chondro, pigeon toed snorting dwarf etc. The gene was well understood well over 100 years ago and breeding recommendations made. The marker/markers came much later and are jolly helpful to Dexter breeders worldwide including me.
I have seen bulldog calves and other calf deformities in Dexter cattle, some genetic others not. None nice, a bulldog calf is easy to avoid some of the other deformities are not !
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Post by lakeportfarms on Jan 3, 2014 10:00:29 GMT -5
Spot on RedRidge. And to carry it further, the statement should also include that IF breeding chondro to chondro there is a 25% chance of a bulldog calf, NOT 100, 75, or even 50 percent. I noticed on their website that their average calving weights are 25.8 kg, which is 56.7 lbs. You no longer have an easy calving breed when you AVERAGE those weights, unless your dams are very large. Contrast that to our AVERAGE calving weight of 14.5 kg. or 32 lbs. out of a chondro carrier bull mated with non-carrier females. And I weigh nearly all of our calves immediately following birth, well as soon as I see them anyway, because I don't have to stand around and watch to assist with calving when they're that size.
In another post in this, or another thread, djdewestsa made the statement that they did not want to start the 100 yr. war. When presented by some of us clear and logical information on the benefits we've observed with the chondro positive Dexters then the pictures of the bulldog calf come out. The Dexter breeder version of passive-aggressive behavior at it's finest. Why get involved in a breed when you can't accept the fact that there are many out there who enjoy their carriers for all the reasons that we've made over and over again? The chondrodysplasia (dwarf) Dexter is the basis of the breed in the first place. I've said it before and I'll say it again, select a different breed and work your magic there instead of insulting those of us who choose to work within the historical basis of the breed using modern genetic tools like the chondro test.
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Post by dexterfarm on Jan 3, 2014 14:16:26 GMT -5
I to am wondering why djdewetsa has dexters. He doesnt seem to like them much. Every thing I reed looks like he wants a big black cow that grows fast on corn in a feedlot. That is an angus or at least what angus have become.
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Post by lakeportfarms on Jan 3, 2014 14:49:35 GMT -5
Nice post Gene. It sums up perfectly why many of us purchased Dexters, and it isn't to mold it into some type of super breed for either meat or milk to raise commercially.
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Post by lakeportfarms on Jan 3, 2014 17:30:16 GMT -5
I to am wondering why djdewetsa has dexters. He doesnt seem to like them much. Every thing I reed looks like he wants a big black cow that grows fast on corn in a feedlot. That is an angus or at least what angus have become. Exactly Dexterfarm...why mess around with Dexters when you can produce an Angus heifer to grow like this at one year old. Think of what a steer would look like. Bigger is not better for most of us. Our daughter was about 5'2" in this photo, taken in 2004 .
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Post by djdewetsa on Jan 4, 2014 2:06:24 GMT -5
Lakeport farms - PS I did not offend anyone and will not - I have given facts to someone who asked - Should I buy a Chondro animal - I have given the facts and then it was you guys that said I talk nonsense by telling me chondro animals do better - I have asked many times for weaning weights and fcr's which no one is willing to give. That is what newcomers need -facts to decide for themselves. Also the gene is lethal and should someone breed with 2 that is what they will get - one time or another. Unfortunately there are breeders out there that do not inform newcomers.
Redridge - I do understand - You tell people its OK to breed with a deformity? - a Stud farmer should always breed an animal with no deformities including no bad genes.
Genebo - SO do you imply that a Dexter must have the carrier gene to be a true Dexter? How many carrier animals also had trouble calving? Especially when putting a non carrier bull on them - the calf would be bigger if its a non carrier? At what age do you then bring the non carrier bull to the carrier heifers for normal calving?
Dexterfarm - You just want to offend - really asking if I love my Dexters? You dont know anything of feed conversion ratios? PS the Dexter have a very good feed conversion ratio. If its good then Dexters can be feedlotted and that's a new selling point. A new advantage of the Dexter that you didn't know - why dont you thank me for giving you this new info?
Really?
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Post by rawlingsdexter on Jan 4, 2014 5:59:20 GMT -5
I cannot believe what I am reading, all of you so called Dexter lovers are quick to bag each other and the breed.
To say why someone would breed Dexters when they don't seem to like them is just d**n insulting. To everyone!!!
If we do not have marketing tools to sell our Dexters over other small breeds you may as well take your bat and ball and go home!!
Dexters are better converters of feed in terms of weight gains per kg of feed consumed and I have the figures to back this up. The animals have better fat cover on less feed, better intra muscular fats and better bone out weights than other breeds. The Dexter has the biggest eye muscle area per 100 kg of body weight than any other breed. And you don't get paid for the air under those legs as shown with the angus heifer shown in this post.
I am also of the opinion that to breed animals that carry a lethal gene is irresponsible, buyers of carrier females buy them because of their size, but as a responsible breeder and to guarantee a live calf, we must breed them to non-carrier animals and that means 50% of the calves will be non-carriers and so bigger than their parents. This is not what the buyers want and so for that reason we no longer have carrier animals in our herd. They also throw to the extremes of the scale with carrier bulls producing calves which are really small or non-carrier progeny that are really large. We have bred hundreds of calves and that is our findings every time.
Can we not all stick together to promote something which we are all passionate about and that is Dexters, if we could do that boy we could actually have an affect.
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Post by lakeportfarms on Jan 4, 2014 8:14:38 GMT -5
Marg, if you look back through more than just the past few posts you'll see that it wasn't us chondro breeders who started the "100 year war" as djwdewetsa termed it in some earlier post (probably edited by now). Your point is perfectly stated...why can't we all work together to promote the breed. And facts are facts, there are a large number of Dexter owners who enter the breed PURELY due to the small stature of the chondro carrier animals. We did. And we went from having a herd of Angus like the heifer I pictured to having a herd of nearly 70 registered Dexters, including a large number of chondro carriers. We also have a herd of nearly 30 Scottish Highlands. It is simply what we prefer and we're willing and enjoy working with the differences between the Dexters, and also the differences between the Highlands and Dexters. Sometimes we cross the two with our chondro bull and the results there have been pretty interesting, and very popular. It is what works for us and our customers, both purchasers of live animals and of beef.
Like Kirk before him, (unless he moved to South Africa and didn't tell us) djdewetsa comes onto the site and in the first posts begins the agenda of denigrating chondro positive Dexters. And also fails to understand that we have regional differences in our operations. Tonight we are expected to get 16" (40cm) of snow, and the temperature will be -5 f or -16c for our high temperature. There is no grazing in those conditions. Our Dexters and Highlands must be efficient animals on hay for many months of the year. We don't feedlot, so djdewetsa's numbers mean nothing to us whether it's weaning at 6 months or rate of gain on corn following that. I can tell you our Angus cows far outperformed the Dexters when it came to growth, and our sale of them through the usual channels was far easier than Dexters ever would be, prior to our building of our network of private clients. However we've developed a niche in the market that we serve, and a major portion of that niche is the chondro positive Dexter. You mentioned you don't get paid for air under the legs. If I didn't know better I'd think you were extolling the virtues of chondro positive Dexters!
We don't raise purely chondro Dexters, as we all know, there will be non-carriers in the herd. We offer choices to our buyers that breeders of non-chondro Dexters exclusively can't provide. Sometimes I wonder if those of you who don't have carriers are envious of our ability to market to a wider range of people. When somebody comes on our farm to purchase or start with Dexters, I have ALL of the kinds of Dexters for them to shop. I don't need to promote a particular color, polled status, carrier/non-carrier. I have it all for them to compare to each other. I don't have an agenda. People leave our farm trusting us and knowing that we'll do our best to help them through making a decision that best fits their particular circumstances. WE GIVE THEM FACTS...WE DON'T PLAY ON THEIR FEARS. And when we do, they tell their friends who are enamored with their little cows who also come to buy one for themselves, or maybe when they get here they have another idea of what may work better for them. And we'll have that too. It seems to me that our approach does far more good for the Dexter breed than the "Don't buy those Dexters with that chondro gene, they're BAD" breeders. If somebody wants non-carrier Dexters, I will have plenty of those for sale in a year. Usually people want the carriers, but I don't have them. I do have carrier bulls. They see ours and decide they would be comfortable with non-carrier cows and a carrier bull. If they love their carrier bull and don't want to part with him, we'll trade them one of our non-carrier heifers in exchange for their carrier heifer so they can continue breeding without the complexity of running two herds, doing AI on, or rolling the dice for the 1 in 4 chance that they'll have a bulldog calf. Many people come to our farm looking for a steer they can raise themselves on their own small property. The chondro positive steer is usually what they leave with. They don't want something even as large as a non-carrier Dexter steer of 44" or so.
I agree, lets all get along and stop bashing those of us who help maintain the status of the Dexter as a small breed! But I'm afraid the major violators of that are those that insist on scaremongering people unfamiliar with the defining characteristic of the breed. "Can we all stick together" is a worthy goal, but based on your constant rhetoric it really means "Can we all stick together and not breed chondro Dexters". That is simply not acceptable to those of us who prefer the carriers for our own reasons. When you stop denigrating us, perhaps we'll all get along. I don't see it happening based on the rants and inflammatory rhetoric of chondro haters, and that's sad.
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