Important Update on Testing, Fall 2014 Dexter Bulletin

[zephyrhillsusan]

Have you read "Important Update on Reporting Test Results" on page 8 in the Fall 2014 Dexter Bulletin?  Here's an excerpt:

"The Board of Directors voted at the 2014 Annual General Meeting to standardize the manner in which test results are reported on the Certificates of Registration and the online pedigree.  It is anticipated that this will be implemented on Jan. 1, 2015.  We feel strongly that this provides useful information for making breeding decisions, which in the long run benefits the entire Dexter breed."

So far, so good.  I find it confusing that the registration certificate says "G5" while the online pedigree says "Sire and Dam Qualified," for instance.  After a recap of the G1 - G5 tier system for genotypes, the article continues . . .

"The system that will be implemented for PHA and chondro will follow the same tier system with level 1 being the lowest level of testing for that trait through level 5, which will be the highest level of testing for that trait."

Here is how test results will be reported for PHA:
P1 - not tested for PHA
P2 - tested carrier for PHA
P3 - non-carrier for PHA obligate by pedigree (explained in the article)
P4 - non-carrier for PHA obligate by parent verification (explained in the article)
P5 - non-carrier for PHA by testing

Here is how test results will be reported for chondro:
C1 - not tested for chondro
C2 - tested carrier for chondro
C3 - non-carrier for chondro obligate by pedigree (explained in the article)
C4 - non-carrier for chondro obligate by parent verification (explained in the article)
C5 - non-carrier for chondro by testing

The article states "There will be a legend explaining the tier-level description for each of these three test results on the back of the Certificate of Registration beginning with all new transactions effective Jan. 1, 2015.  Note:  All results reported prior to Jan. 1, 2015, will remain in the current format.  They will be updated to the new format only if you forward (via email or mail) proper documentation (test results from the lab) and make this request.  The computer program will not make these changes automatically.  Even if you have previously submitted test results to the registrar, they will not be updated without a new request and documentation."

HUH?  What were they thinking?  It looks to me like things are about to get way more confusing!  In addition to remembering the G1-5 tier, we now have two more tiers to decipher, remember, and explain to new Dexter owners.  Nothing will be unified in the online pedigrees at all.  Even if the ADCA moves to using this system on the online pedigrees as well as the registration certificates, there will still be two different methods appearing online.  Example: Some animals' pedigrees will have "PHA" or "Chondro" followed by a blank space.  Other animals' pedigrees will say "C1."  And so on.  How does this standardize anything?

Several other problems with this system come to mind . . .

2)  Some breeders maintain PHA- and chondro-free herds.  On page 5 of this same Fall 2014 Bulletin, Region 3 Director Becky Eterno points out that once the test results of their breeding stock are sent to the ADCA, "After that, the mating of "obligate" animals means no more testing
-- a real financial windfall for breeders!"  The problem is that the new tier system will penalize those who maintain obligate non-carrier herds by giving them a "P4" or "C4" designation, lower than the "P5" or "C5" for tested animals.  If they want to achieve the highest level on the tier they will now have to pay for testing of animals that are actually obligate non-carriers.

Granted, "P3" or "C3" animals--which are obligate only by pedigree and have not been parentage verified--should be on a lower rung.  As we know from a recent thread on this board, animals have occasionally turned out to be different from what their pedigrees say they are.  The only way to be sure is to have them fully parentage verified or "Sire and Dam Qualified" (G5).  But breeders who maintain fully PV'd herds that are PHA- and chondro-free will either have to pay for testing or settle for a lower designation.

3)  If you look at the "G" tier, "G2" for genotype on file is right down at the bottom, just above untested animals.  Again, this is logical because having a genotype on file does not mean that much unless it is used for parentage verification.  The higher levels of parentage verification deserve to be higher.  Here is what the VGL website says:

The accuracy of most animal parentage tests is greater than 99% when both parents are included in the analysis and drops to around 95% when only one parent is included in the analysis.

But how do those of you who breed chondro-positive animals, for example, feel about your animals being listed as "C2"?  The old designation "Carrier" seems to me to be a simple factual statement, while being placed in the next-to-lowest tier for chondro testing seems to rank animals in a way that seems negative for chondro carriers.

4)  What about people that have large herds?  Will you ever be able to collect and send in all the paperwork necessary to get your herds brought up to date?

5)  Isn't this a bit mind-boggling even to those of us who've been in the breed for a while and have finally mastered the "G" system?  How on earth are we ever going to explain this to newcomers to the Dexter breed?  What about those people who do lots of research before they jump in and buy animals?  What on earth is this going to look like to them?  

I understand and applaud the IDEA that I think is behind this change--that of encouraging breeders to test their animals and report those tests to the ADCA.   Unfortunately, I think this new system is a mistake.  I believe it would have been much clearer to simply state "Untested" in the blank space that is currently next to PHA and Chondro on the pedigree page--and to scrap the "G" system on the registration certificates in favor of stating either "Untested," "Genotype on file," "Sire Qualifies," "Dam Qualifies," or "Sire and Dam Qualify."  

It's Black Friday--what do you want to do, fight the insane crowds at the mall or open a can of worms with me?     What do you all think?   

[midhilldexters]

Lol I was so confused when I read David's report in the Bulletin, I already opened the worm can on the ADCA Region 11 page. From the answers, and I didn't get one from my Director yet, it seems others interpret it in differing ways.

My questions are why do I need to provide documentation to the ADCA AGAIN? I already provided it once so where is it now and why can't they use it?
If I provide my test results for original animals from many years ago, will the Registrar work out who are now obligates and how will she have time to do that for everyone?
How do I get test results for cows or bulls I bought from other breeders that were also obligates, or do the test results pass on in the computer and transfer to my next set of calves?
It really reads like a big jumble to me.

Carol K

[legendrockranch]

Nov 28, 2014 16:28:20 GMT -5 midhilldexters said:

My questions are why do I need to provide documentation to the ADCA AGAIN? I already provided it once so where is it now and why can't they use it?
If I provide my test results for original animals from many years ago, will the Registrar work out who are now obligates and how will she have time to do that for everyone?
Carol K

Chondro and PHA are reported on a voluntary basis, those of us that chose to do the right thing test our animals and report our results years ago are now being penalized. Where is the documentation that was originally sent in?
I was so upset I called David and he said that there was no way to store all that information. HUH?? I hope I didn't hear him right.
I'm so po'd.
I understand what they are trying to do (I think) There has to be a better way to go about it.

If the powers that be want to do something constructive make sire and dam parentage verification mandatory.

Barb

[midhilldexters]

So wonder where my very important to me, test results are that I sent the adca? Kind of strange, this just opens up another can of worms in my head. Give me strength!

Carol K

[kansasdexters]

It's a total FAIL. The ADCA Board was tasked with coming up with solutions to the following concerns:

1. The current ADCA practice grants "obligate" non-carrier status of Chondrodysplasia and PHA to untested offspring that are not parentage qualified (sire and dam qualified). That's a very poor practice and registration mistakes have already proved this point.

2. The current ADCA online pedigrees and pedigree certificates do not differentiate animals that have actually been tested as non-carriers of Chondro and PHA, from the obligate (by pedigree) non-carriers of Chondro and PHA. Buyers beware! If a seller can't provide you with a copy of the test reports showing the animal's status with regards to either Chondro or PHA, assume that the animal's status as a non-carrier is unconfirmed. This is a great disservice to any new owners and breeders of ADCA registered Dexter cattle that don't understand the potential consequences of this. The Association must do better in order to properly serve its current and future members.

The currently proposed plan avoids adding the requirement for mandatory genotyping of females, which would allow full parentage qualification (just like the majority of other Dexter registries in the world require) on every breeding stock registration and make "obligate" non-carrier status for Chondro and PHA actually mean something. The cost of doing this would have been $25 per female. It would have secured a higher level of integrity in the pedigrees of all the animals being registered as breeding stock in the future. They avoided taking this action, and instead proposed a baffling plan of "graduated reporting levels" that need a legend or a key to decipher what an animal's status is. No longer will the PHA-status or Chondro-status be shown as "Carrier" or "Non-carrier", now it will be shown as P1, P2, P3, P4, or P5 and C1, C2, C3, C4, C5.

This plan takes us two steps backwards. It makes it easier for the registrar and for the breeder/owners to make mistakes on the registration applications and registration entries into the database. It's worse than what we have now. In my opinion, we're better off doing nothing until female genotyping and full parentage qualification become the norm in the ADCA registration process.

Please send an email or letter to your regional Directors, and copy the ADCA officers to let them know just how you feel about this Board action. If they hear nothing opposing this, then they will assume that everyone is on board with it, and that's just not the case.


Patti

[RedRidge]

Well I'm getting more answers here it seems. I brought this up also on the regional page. I was asked to call sometime over the weekend as the answer to my questions were too long to write.

This is not going to solve the most pressing concerns in the breed and is going to further alienate those who don't test... We need to encourage them to test, not discourage it... ugh!

[lakeportfarms]

I've said it before and I'll say it again...issue "limited" registration certificates for those not parent verified, chondro/pha tested or obligate (through parentage verification) Dexters, and "premium" registration for those that are fully tested and parent verified. If they can go through all the different coding for parent verified, chondro and PHA results, then they can instead encourage testing (and avoid the loss of registrations) through a tier level of registration instead.

[ladena]

So this is going to be implemented on January 1 along with the rate increase of reissuing certificates. All the animals up until then will have the old information and if you want the new certificates you will have to resubmit all your information and pay $3 instead of $2 for a new certificate. I already have to have 6 or 7 certificates reissued because of incorrect parentage reported by the breeder so I guess I should go ahead and resubmit my info and get new certificates for all my animals. Never mind that I have animals that are genotyped and tested with their status reported on the database and their next generation of progeny that are sire and dam qualified and also reported, I still have to resubmit all the info to show their status after the format changes. I'm beginning to understand why some people stop registering their Dexters.

[zephyrhillsusan]

RedRidge, what regional page?

[RedRidge]

Nov 29, 2014 7:52:06 GMT -5 zephyrhillsusan said:

RedRidge, what regional page?

It's the fb page called ADCA Region 8.
Mostly it's used for listing cattle for sale. A few folks use it for cute pics. Very rarely used for good info but... figured it was a good place to ask some questions. I don't think our director appreciated it but by golly we deserve some public answers. Just made me more perturbed that he didn't want to answer my questions publicly for all to see. I was also hoping it would stir the pot a little and force others to ask questions. I'm betting that most people who read the post have no clue what I was even talking about. Please join in Susan... I could use some help. ;-) if we can't educate locally, then doing it nationally is hopeless.
Just trying to get an update from the Sept meeting I missed was like pulling teeth - and I still haven't gotten an answer. A few pmd me privately and said they'd full me if in the director didn't post. He never did. They never did. Hard to get info if you aren't showing. My entire show string had bad warts so I missed the show - which means I missed the regional meeting. All haven't seen the minutes or gotten an update. I'm hoping no one is naive enough to say, " if you'd been there you'd know", that would really make me loose it.

[zephyrhillsusan]

RedRidge, I had no idea such a page existed!  I'm glad you mentioned it.  I sent a request to join, so I guess I'll have to wait till someone lets me in.     Then I'll be glad to post something.  Meanwhile, I'll write to my AD and send copies to the President and all ADs.

[Morning Star Farm]

I am so glad to see that I am not the only one that didn't like this new format. Talk about making things more complicated. I think even more breeders will give up registering their animals because of this. I will be writing my director and sending copies as well.

[lakeportfarms]

I know this is going to raise the hackles of a few here, but the Legacy combination of genotyping/database/registry is going to start to siphon off ADCA registrations if the ADCA decides to make things more complicated with this method. Right now, for $25, I can genotype and register any of my Dexters, and because they are genotyped I can bring them into the ADCA at a later date ANY time I want to. Yes, I may need to late register parents or grandparents, but their parentage is known, unlike a pretty large number of Dexters presently registered with the ADCA that DO NOT have this assurance other than the breeder's integrity/word for it. How many future (or even present) Dexter owners out there are going to decide in the meantime they'd rather save some money, have the assurance of parentage, however keep their options open if they decided to bring the Dexter into the ADCA at some point in the future?

There is a simple answer...if you want obligate status, then the parents must be genotyped and tested non-carriers of PHA or chondro. Only then you can list non-carrier on the status of either, unless you test the animal individually. Keep the carrier/non-carrier fields the same on the online and paper pedigree.

[RedRidge]

Not sure why that would ruffle any feathers. That's just the way it is. I always send tail hairs to legacy within 24 hrs of each calf birth for ALL tests. Everything is easy from there. I've never dealt with TAMU and don't care to, and never had to deal personally with UCD. One stop shopping through legacy - pretty handy. Then I just send the ADCA copies of everything when I register the calf with them sometime later that year.

[copperhead]

The thing we have to do is let them know that we don't like it. I'm contacting my regional director and the ADCA.