jamshundred
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Post by jamshundred on May 6, 2015 23:59:21 GMT -5
Mandatory testing will equal a closed herdbook. You will not be able to being in any more upgraded animals. How on earth will you cope.
Judy
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jamshundred
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Post by jamshundred on May 6, 2015 21:14:57 GMT -5
Dear Kirk,
You have had quite a few years to be weary . . . . .and your herd is still not genotyped. YOU . . . . . do. . . . . .. . NOT believe in it. .. .or it would have been done by now. Members of leadership have scurried around testing their cattle in the very recent past, some still have not. It's like finding Jesus isn't it?
Judy
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jamshundred
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Post by jamshundred on May 6, 2015 21:04:25 GMT -5
Legacy is a genotype registry. Legacy will be thrilled to look out for the interests of breeders leaving ADCA over this and will even invite them to come on over and sit a spell where their interests are the first order of business. However, in the course of 10 years working with members to help with their testing or questions no one was ever pressured to genotype their females. It was a requirement for the preservation bloodlines only. There are members of ADCA leadership who can and will attest to that as well as members on this board who will. I do not believe, across the board, genotyping should be mandatory. Not in THIS breed. As I have stated previously. . there ARE other options.
Dexters are a smalll breed. EIGHTY-FIVE percent of ALL cattle being registered in America are descended from Saltaire Platinum, a bull that was NOT even purebred. Stop a minute.
YOU ARE NOT THINKING OF THE CONSEQUENCES OF THIS ACTION ! If you wish to freshen the bloodlines in the future. . . . you will have to have Legacy stock or imports. WHAT IMPORTS? None, unless you bring in the Australian lines where the herd was built on outcrossing for a high percentage of available lines. Canada does not require full parentage. England does not require it. NONE of their animals will qualify to register in America. If you want diversity. . . .you will have only LEGACY that has animals that will qualify for registration. ADCA is in effect closing the herd book.
There are consequences NONE OF YOU are considering. ADCA leadership isn't even considering these consequences. The obsession with Legacy has removed all reason.
Judy
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jamshundred
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Post by jamshundred on May 5, 2015 11:18:34 GMT -5
There are two published responses to the Sheppy article in the current UK Bulletin, one from Duncan MacIntyre, a veterinarian and long time Dexter breeder who has served in leadership on the DCS council, and Veronica Schofield of the Moomin herd, also a long time respected breeder having served in leadership.
These are prominent members of the UK Dexter breeding circles, and they did NOT have the benefit of detailed information showing the article was flawed with regard to two of the three bulls as to actual documented data. The leadership of ADCA . . . . they DID have that information, and they chose to publish that article anyway, even when they were advised that Grinstead Plover was not the sole source of the color dun - as the earliest US dun animals did not descend from this bull, and they were given details on the markers of Parndon Bullfinch to show the information in the article was in error.
That ADCA chose to go ahead and publish that article as a means to discredit the bloodline preservation effort in the US, and to manipulate the ADCA membership in a crucial vote. . . .was not only unprofessional, it showed a marked lack of fundamental reasoning. It certainly did not fall within the definition of leadership! ADCA owes an apology to their members. . . one and all.
Here are both responses .
Judy
T
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jamshundred
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Post by jamshundred on May 4, 2015 11:10:43 GMT -5
Patti,
You completely negate the responsibility of the REGISTRAR to verify the paperwork is accurate. In researching hundreds and hundreds of pedigrees from the UK, I've never seen these errors. So. .. . why? If the registrar is just taking the information from the breeder and not assessing it. . . . . then the registry is not fulfilling it's mission.
In the case of the Starnes herd. .. . . it was ADCA leadership that registered ALL those calves incorrectly in an attempt to help the Starnes family when their husband/father dropped dead loading his trailer for the AGM. No one in the family knew anything about the animals. It was . . .. . ADCA. . . .. that created the problems that exist. Furthermore, ADCA had duplicity in keeping it from getting straightened out. I personally paid for EVERY sample I could locate of that herd to straighten it out with DNA, but there were important older animals I could not get because members in leadership wouldn't cooperate.
If breeders make mistakes, isn't it the responsibility of the REGISTRAR to attempt to catch them? Isn't that what you were doing when you were having Jill send you all the paperwork to check before it was processed and sent to the owners? Or was there some other reason you wanted all the paperwork?
Patti, I know . . . . and you know. . . . your are driving this agenda. You let test forms sit for months saying "you could not afford" the testing in your own herd and now these same laments from others is ignored because you are pressing this agenda with ADCA. There ARE other options for those who legitimately are homesteaders and small holders that do not burden them financially.
ADCA files paperwork on all the tests that are submitted for recording. . . . in those same files they could require owners to submit TAIL HAIRS of their animals that would be available for testing IF needed to resolve an issue. That is one option. There are others.
Judy
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jamshundred
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Post by jamshundred on May 3, 2015 18:25:30 GMT -5
In England, some of my favorites are: Woodmagic, Limbury, Castle Morton, Oakridge, Grinstead, Knotting, Parndon, Cobthorn.
In the US. . . . . Peerless, Castlegould, Clove Brook, Chautaqua, Thomas', Shome, Belle Fourche, Paradise, O'Brier Hill, Elmendorf, Tak-Sca-Du-Hav, Old Orchard, Glenn Land, Legend, Cascade.
Perhaps you have seen some of these in your pedigree? All are unique herd identifiers. I bet you immediately recognized some of them. . . if not all.
Now tell me ALL the initialed herds that come to mind with immediate recognition. If there is a single one I will be surprised.
STOP using initials to identify US herds. You are assigning boredom and anonymity to your herd name. AND. . . .ADCA. . . .stop telling breeders to use initials ! ! !
A herd identifer is in the records. . . . .FOREVER. It is NOT difficult to choose a unique herd identifier. Some use their last names. Some use the towns in which they live or the name of their farms, or a nearby scenic or historic landmark. The name imprints your herd FOREVER.
It is a rare day when I am not researching herds and pedigrees. Give me a herd name, and I can usually tell you the location, likely the owner's name, and maybe the bloodlines connected. Give me initials. . . . . . it is rare if I can come up with an answer.
For example, while telling a new Dexter owner the importance of their herd identifier, I attempted to make the same points as above. I gave this person the initials of three herds in the same state and not very distant. None of them were recognized. One of them is a herd that was began with foundation animals I sold, I know the owners well, and it took me the longest time to remember the herd that went with the initials.
Initials assign ANONYMITY to your herd because they do NOT imprint with association except in the case of extremely large herds and exceptional animals. . . maybe.
I encourage all new owners who have been told to use initials to INSIST they be allowed to change their herd names to unique identifiers. NOW. Otherwise. . . your herd will be forever forgettable without unique circumstances that bring it recognition. Again. . . . . .your herd identifier is in the records of the Dexter breed. . . . .FOREVER. Don't be anonymous.
Judy
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jamshundred
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Post by jamshundred on May 2, 2015 16:33:57 GMT -5
UCD-VGL is the education arm of the animal science degrees at University of California. They developed DNA testing in cattle in the 1950's. From that time forward they worked with breed associations and registries. The Cothran lab has existed on the campus of Texas A&M,( along with many, many, other research labs) for 7 years now. Bet you didn't know that, huh? You should send ADCA the bill for your transfers since they FORCED you to test at the Cothran lab.
Judy
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jamshundred
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Post by jamshundred on May 2, 2015 16:31:01 GMT -5
Nine years. NINE LONG YEARS before ADCA leadership ( and then only through the efforts of yet another Legacy innovative idea ) approved the world-renowned VGL for ADCA required tests. ADCA should be required to PAY for every test an owner has to transfer to UCD. EVERY ONE.
Judy
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jamshundred
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Post by jamshundred on May 2, 2015 16:16:34 GMT -5
Ellen,
I nominate this as the most outstanding response on this board. . .. EVER!
Judy
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jamshundred
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Post by jamshundred on May 2, 2015 16:14:57 GMT -5
You left out a statistic Patti. How many of those are a direct result of Legacy beginning the genotype effort in the Dexter breed? OH! All of them, you say? Fantastic accomplishment Legacy! High-ten ! !
I'd follow that up by asking how many were done at the top lab in the US and one renowned around the world that it took Legacy years to get ADCA to acknowledge while they FORCED owners to test at the ADCA horse lab.
Juy
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jamshundred
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Post by jamshundred on May 2, 2015 15:59:42 GMT -5
Thank you KIRK ! ! Yes, it IS all about keeping up with Legacy Dexter Cattle (genotype) REGISTRY Amd it is wonderful to be admired and copied ! ! All those who want great service with actual concern for owners and breeders are absolutely invited to bring your cows to the Legacy registry and enjoy all the perks of being appreciated! Not to mention the financial savings. (REGISTER YOUR STEERS for $2.00) Unless you want to show in ADCA shows. . . . . it really does NOT matter where that piece of paper comes from. . . it matters to keep the animals on record and do not lose them from the breed. With Legacy you both gain and save. If your registry isn't becoming to you. . . you should becoming to Legacy. Legacy began by keeping prices low so owners could afford to help make a record of the breed and it is with the same concern for the breed and it's owners that Legacy continues to keep prices low!
Back when Legacy was trying to encourage breeders and owners to genotype the OLDEST cattle still living. . . ..how MANY of the members of the Dexter leadership who were asked for samples of their oldest Dexters would agree to genotype them? Answer - ONE. Shaun Lord. The second American breeder to begin the process of genotyping her herd through Legacy. How many of the horror stories related to you on this very thread might have been avoided with those samples available to the breed? AND. . . . how many of those old samples collected by Legacy are available for parentage? Answer - As many as needed. Haven't we seen the insiders extolling their fellow insiders to get with it themselves. It would be intereting to note the dates on the first FEMALE genotypes for each member of leadership, huh? Or another participant in this thread who often mentioned an "outstanding" cow who DID NOT genotype her. . even when the payment for the genotype ( as agreed) was remitted to ADCA for the lab of choice. So, those who are now for it. . . . well, they were not so much in favor in the very short past. What is different now?
When I purchased my first Dexter it was because I read an article in a rural living magazine about Dexters, and their traits were exactly what I needed for my small farm at the time. I had been milking a Jersey that gave FOUR gallons of milk twice a day. I fed hogs, and chickens, and dogs and cats, made butter and cheese, and still could not keep up with the flow. And then I read about the little Dexter cattle who would give an amount of milk that would be ideal for a samll family.
THIS IS THE ISSUE AND THE ONLY ISSUE! The brochures of yesterday and the brochures of today and the articles in Countryside, and MEN, and Backwoods Home, or Hobby Farms. . . whatever the source. . . . tell SMALL farmers and Homesteaders that DEXTERS are the perfect cow for their small places. BUT. . . folks. . . . a homesteader can NOT afford a $2500-$5000 milk cow or beef! Not yesteryear. . . . not today and not tomorrow. The folks that the Dexter is just perfect for. . . . . well, most of them are either buying from breeders in rural areas who have kept their prices reasonable, or they are buying un-registered stock if they are buying at all. Meanwhile this breed is being swarmed by opportunists exactly like that which took place in llamas, mini horses, mini donkeys, pot belly pits, ostrich, emu, boer goats. And then what happens. Prices rise to unaffordable except for those with jingle-jangle who come in on the wave. . . . and when the pyramid crashes leave just as rapidly, and the breed crashes. EVERY one of those breeds who had the same fad frenzy as Dexters is experiencing now . CRASHED. ( Perhaps historically the only breed that has survived a fad is the Angus). Dexters will not continue like this. . . . the crash will come. . . and forcing out the target market with the rising costs is going to usher it in much sooner,
Judy
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jamshundred
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Post by jamshundred on Apr 28, 2015 19:31:27 GMT -5
ADCA published an article by Andrew Sheppy in their last Bulletin. This article was based on faulty data and assumptions, and the conclusion served to discredit bloodlines in the preservation effort, one of them being the renowned and respected Woodmagic herd. ADCA was given SPECIFIC information as to the errors in the article which served the erroneous conclusion. Requests were made by a number of breeders that the article NOT be published. In emails ADCA officers admitted they were using the article to MANIPULATE their membership to vote for parentage testing for female cattle. ( They did not admit they were also taking an opportunity to take a swipe at the preservation efforts whicH ADCA has refused to acknowledge or support).
If an organization is willing to discredit just about every single animal in their registry. . . . . in order to manipulate their members. . .. than the mission is not what appears and the best interests of the breed and it's owners are being disregarded.
In 2004 the Legacy Database was established at UCD-VGL. At the time UCD-VGL was a world renowned laboratory, and the teaching arm for all animal science degrees. VGL not only developed DNA testing in cattle in the 1950's they had been servicing various breeds and associations for all the decades since. At the time ADCA was sending their samples to Canada for testing. A couple years later issues between ADCA representative(s) and the lab created a situation where ADCA had NO laboratory for testing. ADCA untruthfully advised their membership they could not get samples across the border. ( PDCA was also testing in Canada and having no problem at all getting their samples tested in Canada).
Legacy contacted ADCA and suggested ADCA make UCD available for testing for their members and also join the preservation/voluntary genotyping effort and wrote to PDCA as well. PDCA responded, however, they had an established relationship with the Canadian lab and made a decision to continue. ADCA did not bother to respond. However, a Director did follow up and advised that ADCA was afraid a member of PDCA who was a professor in an upstate California University might get access to their samples. This was a silly and unprofessional position, and the best interests of the breed and it's owners were disregarded.
Someone in ADCA knew Gus Cothran, reportedly through horse channels, a professor well known in equine research who had recently moved from a professor position in Kentucky to take a professor position with Texas AM. He was solicted to set up a testing laboratory for Dexter cattle, although he had no previous experience with cattle testing. ADCA again was less than honest with their membership. They led their membership to believe the testing facility was similar to the UCD-VGL facilities, rather than the private lab it actually was.
As time passed Legacy had continued to encourage owners to particpate in voluntary DNA testing and to participate in making a permanent record and DNA database of the Dexter breed which would exist into " Forever". More and more breeders began to DNA test, the Legacy database grew. . . . ADCA realized a need to play "catch-up" . However, fearing a backlash of members due to the mandatory added expense they required only bulls to be tested. DNA parentage testing, and pedigree accuracy did not become important to ADCA until FIVE years had passed from Legacy first campaigning for voluntary DNA testing and the Dexter DNA database at UCD had steadily grown and DNA testing through Legacy had become established in the breed. However, in order to circumvent competition from Legacy, ADCA insisted that ALL testing had to be done at the private lab they set up in Texas. Members who had been testing with UCD were in the beginning forced to test their bulls with the Cothran lab on the campus of Texas A&M where these samples were used by Dr. Gus Cothran for non-Dexter breed research, and where they were given by signed ADCA contract to a research facility for ANY type of research without restrictions, and with no requirement research be Dexter breed specific. At the time All samples were received by ADCA and hand-carried to the Cothran lab, and payment was collected by ADCA. Again, the best interests of the breed and it's owners were disregarded.
Legacy negotiated with the permission of UCD with patent holders for permission to have Chondro, PHA, and finally A2 testing all available at UCD. UCD then provided a package price to Legacy that was less than half Dexter owners were paying elsewhere. Legacy set up a user-friendly website for testing services and many Dexter breeders used Legacy testing services for these tests which were now available at only one UCD. Many of these owners began to use Legacy for their genotype requirements after discovering the efficiency and experience of the UCD laboratory. ADCA reluctantly was forced to accept UCD DNA results although they insisted the DNA test results had to be transferred to the the Cothran lab. There came a time when it was discovered that transferred results as well as ADCA results were in the possession of an ADCA member who was using them for private research.
At all times in the past, ADCA has NOT proceeded in their registry or testing to make the best choices and decisions for the breed or it's members. It has been the members themselves who have forced ADCA to change requirements that were onerous, un-necessarily expensive, non-professional and at times, non-sensical. ADCA has singularly focused on power, control, and finances over the years and not considered the best interests of the breed or it's owners.
If mandatory testing is in the best interests of the breed and the breeders why is there resistance? Are people who have been testing voluntarily now trying to force their desires on those who have not? Some of the loudest voices advocating testing at this time were deadset against it in the past. When did YOUR represetative begin to test their herd? A number of them found it not so important at all, and were some of the last to do so. . . under pressure from the association. Has anyone considered there is now, and has been for the past ten years options that serve the same purpose but do not place a financial burden on those last able to afford it, and will force these owners to stop registering their cattle, or leave ADCA?
I've not seen a single person suggest an alternative for those who own one bull and one or two cows. I've not seen anyone suggest that breeders who have more than one breeding bull in use be required to test. I have never seen anyone suggest that all progeny from AI breedings be parentage confirmed. Most of the mis-identifications of the past were not outcrossed breedings. They were Dexter breedings with wrong parentage and they can almost always be traced to breeders with larger herds and multiple bulls. How many of what the mainstream cattleman call "real" breeds require mandatory DNA testing with parentage confirmation?
I think there is little consideration being given to the mandatory financial burden being placed on some who will not be able to afford it and I see little real effort to discuss options. ADCA is singularly focused on keeping up with Legacy and is not searching for alternatives that serve the best interests of the breed and all it's owners at the same time.
So.. . . am I for DNA testing? Of course. My herd was the first DNA typed and parentage confirmed herd in the Dexter breed. I didn't begin the process with any notion of establishing integrity in my pedigrees. I started as a means of protecting my herd durng an ugly Dexter political period in the from petty and puntive leaders with a penchant for abusing power. I have always advpcated DNA testing for various reasons, but I have also insisted that the market will drive the testing. It has. . ..it does. .. .it will. If YOUR herd has been voluntarily tested, why then do you think it necessary to force your fellow members into mandatory testing? If tested animals are more sought out in the breed, and that is what the market values. . . what's it to you if someone else chooses not to test? That IS a good question because it will lead you to the very basis of why this is an issue and discussion.
Judy Jams Hundred herd
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jamshundred
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Post by jamshundred on Dec 30, 2014 16:16:56 GMT -5
Barbara Netti,
I have NEVER in my life called anyone a cow. Anyone who uses a smartphone or IPAD is well aware of the embarassment that comes with the phone making automatic corrections and posting entirely different words than your originally type. I repeat. . . I have NEVER referred to anyone, man or woman as a cow. It is NOT a perjorative that I use. Immediately, when I reread the FB post I edited the error, stated it was an error, and apologized as Carol Kollar had already jumped into the thread to denounce me. Let me tell you NOW. . . just in case you don't know it already. . If *I* say it. . . I own it, and if there would ever be a time in my life that I felt like calling someone a cow. . . . and it was an insult in my lexicon. . . I WOULD do it. . . and I would NOT edit it
SO. . . your turn girls. POST THE THREAD. In the words of Olga, " prove it or recant".
Judy Sponaugle
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jamshundred
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Post by jamshundred on Dec 30, 2014 16:11:42 GMT -5
The Andrew Sheppy article reprinted on DCW was a unique copy from the computer of Mr. Sheppy. I was advised by Mr. Sheppy this afternoon that he was contacted by the editor of the UK Bulletin asking him to respond direct to a request by Carol Koller to reprint the Sheppy article and that on December 23rd he emailed copies of the article along with permission to reproduce the articles for anyone interested to Carol Koller.
I offer my sincere apology to Carol Koller for jumping to the conclusion she had copied the article from the DCW website and making that accusation against her on this group.
I was absolutely mistaken. I was absolutely wrong in all regards as to this article.
Judy Sponaugle
PS I note in this thread that Olga Penka has requested an apology or retraction. I apologize to Olga Penka as well though I have not yet received a private message from her.
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jamshundred
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Post by jamshundred on Dec 29, 2014 19:17:30 GMT -5
Carol, I thought you to be a person with credibility. This blatent lie tells me different. I NEVER called anyone cows on facebook. . . just another "gotcha" moment from mean girls who seem to live on their computer screens. I made a typographical error . . . . . .and I immediately corrected it. AND SAID SO. AND YOU KNOW IT. That you are willing to promote this lie. . . means you ARE a liar. I have never called anyone a COW in my life. I think too much of cows to demean them. If I chose to use a derogatory term against someone. . . I have better ones in my arsenal. Pleae note that all I said was that the article was taken from the DexterCattleWorld.proboards.com site without permission. Then came the personal attack. Nothing I am not used to fending off from the "mean girls" gang but do NOTE that . .. . . as usual. . . . .it is not ME who starts it. Back to the issue though there was the usual divert-attention-from-the-issue-at-hand attempt. A copyright article was taken without permission being granted. All you had to do was ask. I share everything I have with anyone who asks if *I* have permission to do so. People in this thread can attest to that. Edit: Carol, I made no assumptions. I know the unique source of the article.
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