jamshundred
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Post by jamshundred on Feb 26, 2014 10:37:18 GMT -5
I feel so strongly about dehorning adult animals I am compelled to speak out. I understand God gave us "dominion" over the animals. He gave us "dominion" over our children as well. Both animals and children have authorities that will step into stop abuse and neglect and why this issue of dehorning has not been addressed is beyond me. It is a brutal, barbaric, and abusive practice to take the horns off an adult animal. God forgive those who do it without proper sedation, but even with proper sedation you will find sufficient data on the internet that shows a mature horned cow will still feel pain from this procedure even when heavily sedated and that includes intravenous medication.
I get it ( the fear). I had no thought or fear of horns when I purchased my first Dexter as it was not an issue I had seen discussed when it came to Dexters. They were a "horned breed" but I simply never thought about what that meant! My first Dexter was a weanling calf and the breeder dehorned as a matter of course. Later, when I wanted to purchase another Dexter and I visited horned herds my fear came to the surface. I dehorned the second weanling myself with a goat dehorner. She never forgave me.
Then came my education of horns from the breeder of the second heifer who needed to disperse her herd due to illness. She wanted me to take her remaining HORNED cows. She advised me I need not be fearful of the horns and why. I was not completely convinced and I still was fearful. Reluctantly I took the horned cows. Probably for the same reason you purchased yours. The deal was too good to pass and I had fallen for Dexters!
I have worked over 20 years with a herd at times as large as 100 horned Dexters of all sizes. Most of those years alone. I am a widow. I walk the fields alone. I move around feeders and paddocks and pushing/shoving cows alone. You have the imprinted definition of fear in your pounding chest when you are carrying a bucket of feed to troughs at the bottom of an incline and you hear the sound of thundering hooves all headed in your direction at once!
I have been injured by a horn on one occasion. . . . when I had a young weanling in the headgate for an eartag. I dropped it and bent over to pick it up and leaned in too close at the same time the heifer lifted her head catching me in the lip with her little stubby horn growth. It was not her intent to harm me. . . it was MY mistake. My carelessness. I believe I am safer with my horned cattle than others with non-horned. I know how to be alert and cautious.
It is too late to save your cows from a brutal procedure performed by a vet because he could, and I DO wish there were a law against it or that more vets would refuse to perform this brutal procedure on mature cattle especially as most are done without proper sedation. I have stood by a vet on the first and only occasion ( vowed there would never be another) while an 18 month old bull was dehorned by a vet and I will never forget the procedure or the sounds of agony that rolled from his throat. Nor will I forget how an hour later his dam came to his side and laid her head across his shoulders and "held" and comforted him in his continued agony. His agony did not end with the procedure. These animals we raise are not without feelings or emotions however focused we may be at ignoring the truth of it.
I see on the pages of this talk group and in other livestock circles . . a lackadaisical attitude about the dehorning procedure of adult animals. It is a brutal barbaric act against the animal you own and there are consequences to the animal beyond the physical trauma and pain of the moment.
Please don't purchase adult horned animals if you are not willing to learn to handle and manage them and if there is the occasional difficult or dangerous animal that requires a dehorning procedure I think "dominion over the animals" still requires you take every means to make sure the animal does not suffer. If you breed horned animals you have an obligation to potential purchasers to address their fear and concerns regarding horns or do NOT sell mature horned cows!
Judy Sponaugle
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jamshundred
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Post by jamshundred on Feb 25, 2014 14:10:31 GMT -5
<<<I believe it's very unwise to draw conclusions based on hearsay and rumors. I've realized over the years that people behaving badly, or acting in ignorance, are usually the cause and the reason for animals behaving badly<<
Then you proceed to a conclusion that has no significant data to prove it.! So let us go back to specifics.
The sire of Lucifer of Knotting has been reported by Carol Davidson to have had a less than desirable disposition. Lucifer of Knotting himself "flipped out" in a holding facility/stock yard in Chicago on the way to the US and was SHOT DEAD. Mr. Chesterley was personally knowledgeable about another son of Lucifer that was "loco". ( Believe me. . . I have seen the "loco" and it is absolutely descriptive of what happens when these bulls lose it). The son of Lucifer that Sandy Thomas imported to breed for red apparently flipped out, treed her and ended up dead for his antics but Mr Chesterley said he had exhibited loco behavior from the beginning. There are a number of instances reported as to bulls from this line "flipping out". My first personal experience with a bull from this line was owned by a man who came to be a good friend. That bull was "loco" but never reached the "flip out" attack stage. I was fearful my friend would one day be killed by him. I would never go in the field where he was kept with the herd, and my friend was amused that I would only walk the fenceline, always dang well aware where the nearest escape/tree/building was when I was near the field in case he breeched the fence. I knew there was something "off" with that bull. Thank goodness he got rid of him. The one which I removed from a farm for the owner was the most frightening animal I have ever encountered. His behavior was "loco" and his eyes were" wild" and "loco" in appearance. He stayed on a trailer for three days until I could get him to a slaughter house. Loco. It was this experience that explained for me clearly and succinctly what Mr. Chesterley described to me. Believe me, I could never have comprehended without having experienced it first hand and I have no patience for those who would argue this doesn't exist in a particular bloodline. Once you have met it face on. . . you will never make excuses ever, ever, again. I will also say that in the females from this line there appears to be what I will call "strong" personalities. .Perhaps even aggressive personalities but not with any intent to harm of which I am aware.
I know two breeders in PA I have talked to personally who were attacked by their Dexter bulls, ( traditional bloodlines). Both bulls were gentle pets. The one man was repairing an outbuilding, had his back to the bull, and the next thing he knew he was in the hospital with multiple serious injuries. Only his wife seeing the attack out a window saved him. The other breeder's bull was also a pet. Never a hint of aggression according to him until the day he was attacked. The owner was not only broken by the attack, he was broken because the animal he loved and nurtured was responsible. I did not seek this information. It came out in other discussions regarding Dexters with these owners.
I personally know other people with bulls from Lucifer lineage. One was raised on my farm. . . . and sold before I had knowledge of the problems in this bloodline, and he has never shown aggression. I will admit to always being careful however when I am on his current owner's farm and I had a young son of his challenge me one day. Although I will now never personally sell a bull from this bloodline. . . . . I have never said every offspring is afflicted but I DO urge caution to anyone who owns a young bull from these bloodlines. I suspect there are signs early on that are missed until the "flip out".
Judy
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jamshundred
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Post by jamshundred on Feb 12, 2014 11:00:27 GMT -5
Another "old timer" belief regarding Dexters ( and maybe all breeds - but first told to me regarding Dexters though I heard from another source as well) is that cows with WHITE on their udders make the better milk cows.
Judy
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jamshundred
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Post by jamshundred on Feb 10, 2014 8:14:41 GMT -5
Karrie,
How is it possible that you got electric back before me? You are in the boondocks and I am on the fringe of a huge metro area? Boy do I miss Allegheny power. I was never without electricity more than 1 1/2 days. You reported the outage and they sent workers! Potomac Edison first sends a fellow with his laptop who maps the transom poles and gets the "lay of the land" while moving not much further than 10 feet from his vehicle with his binoculars. Next come the white color guys in their little white sedan who don't even get out of the car, just ask you for the information. Hours or a day later the worker bees move in and then the work gets done! I just got my power back late yesterday morning and was the last person in the county to get service back. The half of me that did not have to do the physical labor enjoyed playing "pioneer" in the dark and cold and the vegetables I wrapped in tin foil and cooked in the coals of the wood stove were some of the best I have eaten in years!
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jamshundred
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Post by jamshundred on Feb 4, 2014 10:17:24 GMT -5
Bumping up the thread. I am still seeking names of Dexter cows/bulls with marker 77 reported in locus TGLA227.
Thanks, Judy
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jamshundred
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Help build the Legacy Dexter Cattle "Forever" Genotype database
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Post by jamshundred on Feb 4, 2014 10:08:20 GMT -5
FYI - Legacy met the polled test challenge and UCD-VGL was the first lab to offer the test to Dexter owners!
Recently I noticed a member of the pedigree and genetics committee with ADCA make a posting on Facebook that he had just transferred his genotypes to UCD from the Cothran lab and commented on the cost of $10.00 each. ADCA should be advising their members how to do this transfer because if done properly the cost is only $2.00 and can be done direct by the owner or by Legacy but you HAVE to do it online! !
( My opinion is that ADCA should transfer EVERY genotype from Cothran to UCD at NO CHARGE to their members because the decision to set-up a private lab with an owner who had not previously been involved with cattle testing as a business venture, and go further by deceiveing the members it was actually a lab ran by and overseen by Texas A&M regents instead of using one of the best in the world was such a poor political decision versus a throughly researched professional one they should make amends for it. It was the ADCA decision to FORCE members to use the private laboratory of Gus Cothran for testing that has now created an additonal financial burden for those who need to transfer genotypes or do new ones at UCD and ADCA SHOULD be held accountable).
Judy
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jamshundred
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Help build the Legacy Dexter Cattle "Forever" Genotype database
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Post by jamshundred on Jan 31, 2014 13:50:33 GMT -5
While I was reading on the site here are some more cookies that tried to hitch a ride: gravity.com, gwallet.com, everesttech.net, advertising.com, turn.com, sp.fastclick.net, bluelava.com Maybe we need a national, "do-not-cookie" me list. Judy
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jamshundred
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Help build the Legacy Dexter Cattle "Forever" Genotype database
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Post by jamshundred on Jan 31, 2014 13:32:20 GMT -5
This morning I set my browser to prompt for permission to allow cookies to be placed on my computer. When I logged onto this chat group the requests started coming, one after another. After the first 7-8 I started counting them. When I had denied TWENTY-TWO requests, I started denying and writing down the websites that ARE very likely placing cookies on your computer. Here are the ones I denied and then wrote down once I realized I was under full seige.
ebay.com, utube.com ,nex-ac.com, lucidmedia.com ,rtbidder.net, wtp101.com, media6degrees.com, mathtag.com, bluekai.com, collectivemedia.net, adminiadvertising.com, relestar.com,cl.adform.net, equads.com,intentiq.com. Each time I was prompted to accept or deny the cookie I would select the choice to NEVER allow the site to put a cookie on my computer. All these sites and many more are hitching a ride with you and mining information about you.
Along with that, I have been getting soooooo many soliciting calls. The other day I answered and engaged a conversation with the person telling them to remove me from their calling list. During the conversation I discovered that IF you go on Facebook or other media and click on ADS, they not only gather your email address they can get your name and other information. This woman knew my name, my address, my phone number, all from me clicking on an ad on the internet.
Kim Komando on her website/newsletters has been warning of sites that are legitimate but hackers have entered and added malicious code which can redirect you or collect your data.
This mining off information from your computer or accounts is just as big a threat to your security as those who shopped at Target ( and some other stores) during the pre-Christmas holdiday season and likely had their credit card/debit card and passwords or pins stolen. I heard there were some folks apprehended yesterday with credit card information that traces back tot he Target hack.
Judy
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jamshundred
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Post by jamshundred on Dec 31, 2013 15:29:50 GMT -5
Truth,
Thanks for the photo. There are many more and each of them serves to point out how far the "modern" Dexters have drifted in phenotype. In two short decades this breed has been ravaged in the US. Just look at the photos of show animals and the lack of a breed standard to guide breeders. The " smallest breed of European cattle" has animals cavorting in the show ring that will mature 50- 55 inches in height. Look at the height of AI bulls, and do not forget that be it carrier or non-carrier most bulls will grow at least three inches between three and five years of age. I saw a photo on the front page of the UK group of a young boy with his Dexter standing less than waist high and compared it to the colossal bull in the ADCA photos whose head is about the same height as the man holding it.
I am a chondro breeder. I DO have experience of how short legs survive better than long legs. When we had a severe drought during normal pasture season a number of years ago my long legs could not hold their weight and the dwarf cattle seemed barely to notice.
Modern breeders would like to forget that the Dexter breed is a DWARF breed. To obtain small cattle that are not carriers the breed changes from a dwarf breed to a miniature breed. Mrs. Rutherford's herd was miniaturized. They had also changed so drastically genetically they no longer compared to the Dexter breed. ( See the Cardiff report - where it is stated gently but clearly).
Dexters are not nor will they ever be a commerical breed in the states. That is why there is so much attrition in the breed, especially noticeable in the last 15 years with breeders jumping in based on the selling points from brochures of old and jumping back out with purses much lighter with the realities of the modern herd.
Thw US herd stands on the verge of disaster . .. it has entered the danger zone and whether it can be pulled back from the edge of the cliff is rather doubtful. The troubling signs are gaining in numbers.
Judy
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jamshundred
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Help build the Legacy Dexter Cattle "Forever" Genotype database
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Post by jamshundred on Nov 30, 2013 12:54:22 GMT -5
Just a remind folks. DO NOT take these results to be accurate. Bullfinch is correct, but Jamie O'Callen and Aldebaran Priapus are NOT.
Gene, YES! Semen can be tested. Care must be taken to wrap the straw in bubble wrap or tape inside stiff folded cardboard or both so that the straw does not get smushed in transit for then it would be lost. ( Has happened). Rua Doches. DNA typed. I have to check about other tests - - - cannot remember. His sire was color tested ED/ED.
Judy
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jamshundred
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Post by jamshundred on Nov 30, 2013 11:30:54 GMT -5
Lisa,
Both chondrodysplasia and PHA have to have BOTH parents as carriers before a non-viable fetus is created and/or aborted.
I breed chondro carriers. With the "proportionate" carriers they are similar in body type to non-carriers. The carriers that have stronger dwarf characteristics tend to have pot-bellied looks when pregnant and when not but they always look like they are going to have another calf for a while after pregnancy. And a nice big swill of water is the same as blowing up a balloon.
I have seen very few bulldog calves over the 20 years I've been breeding carrier to carrier. The later term calves WILL have black skin. A chondro aborted fetus will have little tiny stubs of legs attached to the body of the tissue mass. I've never seen one even in pictures that had leg stubs longer than maybe two inches. A PHA waterbaby will have longer legs with joints. When these abortions occur early the body is usually white or whitish pink as the hide has not developed.
Send me a photo of your cow and I can give you a good idea if she is chondro. There are also some characteristics to PHA cattle but you have to look at lots and lots of photos of carriers to be able to pick up on the differences in the lengths of the necks and the differences in the chest areas fore of the shoulders that I have noted in many PHA carriers.
Chondro has been with Dexters since the beginning. The Dexter breed was primarily established on the basis of dwarf cattle. PHA in the USA can be traced to one cow - -Woodmagic Wheatear imported to Canada in 1978. ( I know of one case that does not but I am certain the parentage is recorded in error on that case).
DexterCattleAmericanLegacy.info has a photo of an aborted PHA baby so you can compare. Not sure if the bulldog is there or not but both are also available on the internet. The best way to learn is from experience. The information is statistic based and the percentages are just stats not reality. It depends on variables that are NOT available in the literature and that you learn both with positive and negative reinforcement!
Judy
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jamshundred
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Help build the Legacy Dexter Cattle "Forever" Genotype database
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Post by jamshundred on Nov 27, 2013 15:24:07 GMT -5
Susan,
That was a great job!
For owners who wish to have their animals added to the Legacy registry with the purple font they should affiliate: LEGACY. Once they have their results they can change the affiliation to the ADCA code and the report will go to ADCA. If they also wish to participate with PDCA the same process.
There is NO cost at this time to add your Dexter to the Legacy database. It provides a visual pedigree of recorded genotypes. Legacy is in the process of adding the early Royal Dublin Society Herd books and at least the first ten herdbooks from England to the registry with hopes that in the future owners can trace their genotypes back as far as they go!
Some have already been added but still adapting the system to take the old entries so it a beginning process.
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jamshundred
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Post by jamshundred on Nov 27, 2013 15:11:56 GMT -5
Very interesting!
I remembered where I got that information about Jamie O'Callen carrying red. It came to me with the TYRP1 research report from Sheila Schmutz, Canadian Dexter researcher, years ago. This is the SECOND bull on this report that *I* have had tested and discovered to be recorded incorrectly on this report. So is Priapus. I don't know how many if any of them are correct or wrong! I have taken a photo of the report. Eventually I will get it to upload This is a report from CANADA. I've seen no other test regarding O'Callen color recessives.
Later,
Oops really mucked this one up. I posted in the wrong thread. Gene posted the photo for me in that thread about the time I was moving my response to the right thread. LOL. If he does not get it moved look in the previous thread for a photo of the report.
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jamshundred
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Post by jamshundred on Nov 27, 2013 15:04:05 GMT -5
Oops. Wrong thread!
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jamshundred
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Post by jamshundred on Nov 26, 2013 19:31:56 GMT -5
At the ADCA AGM in early summer the Board of Directors of ADCA determined to at long last tell the members of ADCA the TRUTH about Saltaire Platinum. Darn it but I get so annoyed with myself when I am naive and gullible! What an idiot I was. I believed the farce! And then the recent Dexter Bulletin arrived and a man I was told is honorable disapponted me when he ran with a 99.2 per cent pure fairy tale, and then Patti Adams who darn well knows better patronized leadership and you the membership as well, and agreed to do the whitewash of the decade on Godstone Esmeralda. Are you never going to stand up and insist they give you honest and accurate information on which to make your breeding choices?
Godstone Esmeralda, contrary to the impression Patti Adams portrayed was a cow with a REGULAR registration number ONLY because she was registered INCORRECTLY. Either by ignorance or by fraud.
Error one in the registration process. She was a polled cow submitted on the end-of-year herd listing and then registered as horned because England did NOT register polled in the year she was born 1984. So, her registration is an ERROR. As a polled cow she DID NOT qualify to be registered.
Error two in the registration process. Godstone Esmeralda was an outcrossed cow. She was a polled cow born of two horned parents on a farm that had other outcrossed animals and that had beef animals adjacent. She was NOT a novel mutation. There is no scientific evidence or data supporting this fraud perpetrated on American Dexter owners. NONE. NADA. Had her parentage been submitted correctly for registration ( but her polled status still now known or divulged) she would have qualified for registration in the upgrade/appendix registry. She would have been entered in category *A*.
So, the very best status Esmeralda could have obtained in the DCS Dexter cattle registry, had the truth of her breeding and her horn status been entered on the herd listing and registration papers was. . . . .APPENDIX REGISTRY A. Worst case, she would not have been registered at all.
********************************************************************************************************************************** The son of Godstone Esmeralda, Migh Poldark, would NOT have qualified for registration in the DCS registry. Male descendents of appendix cows are NOT registered. In order to register or to keep this POLLED animal in the registry, the myth that Godstone Esmeralda was a novel mutation had to be perpetrated. No novel mutation. .. no polled bull named Migh Poldark. One had to understand the degree of upgrading/outcrossing in the English herd from the mid 1940's and for decades afterward. The English had their Dexter cattle crossed with every breed imaginable. Shorthorns, Ayrshire, Angus, Jersey, Holstein. You name it you could find it. They had no particular bias against these upgraded cattle . . . . . so having one turn up polled would not have been unusual. Getting it into the registry however was another story. And story it was. A fairy tale. Novel mutation. So. . . the facts are that Migh Poldark would NOT have been registered had Godstone Esmeralda been submitted for registratin with accurate information and would likely have been relegated to the fate of a grade male animal in the world of animal husbandry.
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The son Of Migh Poldark, Saltaire Platinum. Migh Poldark did not qualify for registry as the son of an appendix cow so Saltaire Platinum would also be relegated to the fate of a grade animal. BUT THERE IS MORE!
************************************************************************************************************************************************************************** The great-great dam of Saltaire Platinum was a cow named Homer Rixey Piella. She was born in 1969 and she was registered CORRECTLY as an appendix cow, Appendix A becuse she was an outcrossed cow. No official record of the cross, but it has been related to me it was acknowledged as Angus. The breeder acknowledged the outcrossing at the time of registration. However, in 1969 there was NO official herdbook published. Could this have contributed to either an error or a later fraud when the cow was re-registered with a different sire and given a regular registration number? ( The archived record of DCS on this animal details what I have written above, and the herd book records will show an inconsistency with date of birth and registration number). **************************************************************************************************************************************************************************
The son of Homer Rixey Piella, Saltaire Magpie was NOT eligible for registration because he was male progeny of an appendix cow and males were not permitted to be registered. Saltaire Magpie is the great grandfather of Saltaire Platinum and he is registered in ERROR.
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The above is overwhelming, but there is yet another upgrade in this pedigree! And the President of ADCA by his own pen tells you not to be concerned because Saltaire Platinum, afterall, is. . .99.2% pure. They DO think you all capable of drinking the KoolAid because you do! Please get upset folks and stop being dupes. Sticking your head in the sand is effectively GENETICALLY ENGINEERING a special and unique herd of heritage horned cattle into a herd of polled upgrades. It is happening at warp speed, but aside from the loss of bloodlines and genetics, and aside from the fact that 85% of every animal being registered is from ONE bull only a few generations at most from the ancestor, there is another even more threatening side to this lack of leadership and vision. More on the FAD of polled that is going to crash our breed later! Please! Read this. Think on this. Ponder what is happening to the rare heritage horned Dexter breed in America.
Judy
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