jamshundred
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Post by jamshundred on Dec 29, 2014 17:35:25 GMT -5
Carol K, It is interesting to note you visit and read ( and copy articles) at the Dexter Cattle World site. The article copied here is copyright. . . and I had permission from the author to reprint it . Perhaps you should request permission as well. For those interested in the earlier article both are on the Dexter Cattle World site with permission of the author. For those who are not aware the significance of this article I will clarify. The discussion surrounding the color dun relates to the Woodmagic herd. It was the proliferation of dun in this closed herd that eventually permitted the color dun to be registered in England. The dun has been traced behind the Woodmagic herd to Grinstead ancestors. There HAS been over time a debate among a number of breeders in England as to the source of the dun color. Although research orignally published the dun as a unique color in the Dexter breed. . . . that research did not include samples from animals who may have contributed the dun to the breed. The Shadwell Robert information relates to US breeders in that he was the ancestor of the AI bull, Cornahir Outlaw in use in the USA. Parndon Charley Pudding was the sire of Parndon Bullfinch, the first AI bull in the USA and found in most US pedigrees. However, the information in this article has error, and though the author was advised of the error it was to late for review as the article was already in the publishing process. The Cardiff Research project markers have an error as relates to Bullfinch, therefore any speculation based on these markers would be inaccurate. The Cardiff project reported the markers as 89/99. Discussion in this group as relates to that marker has no bearing on the issue! Semen from Parndon Bullfinch was DNA genotyped at UCD and in the locus TGLA227 the markers, reported to the ISAG standard are 81/93. This difference is too great to have been anything but error. There have also been offspring of Parndon Bullfinch whose parentage was confirmed to these markers as well as very close descendents wh o carry the same markers. All the markers in the UK genotype when compared to the UDC genotype vary. .. . most by only the degree that might be present if a genotype were not reported to the ISAG standard, although there are two which seem to be greater in variance even when that is considered. This information was available on the DexterCattleWorld.proboards.com group nearly immediately after the publishing of the articles, but was not copied here along with the article. That IS pretty important information for US breeders to know. Judy Sponaugle EDIT - PS Let me also add, that there is commentary on this thread that persons named would NOT confirm as accurate, so read with that grain of salt. The MOST unique Dexter samples in the Cardiff research project as relates to purity. . . . . in fact. . . . .were the US samples! That report is available for download at: DexterCattleAmerican Legacy.info
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jamshundred
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Post by jamshundred on Sept 23, 2014 8:33:54 GMT -5
This was nothing less than spite. This is the second time you have made an example of Gene on this forum and attempted to humiliate him publicly. Gene helped you build this forum and worked constantly to bring members to it ( with much success) and was always willing to share and help anyone who crossed his path online or off. He was always a gentleman and never profane or vulgar and even a flimsy excuse for this unsupportable action is no excuse at all!
Those of you on this forum who support censorship of thoughts and opinions forget the men and women who have died over the course of 238 years to insure you those rights.
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jamshundred
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Post by jamshundred on Mar 18, 2014 21:37:13 GMT -5
Question for the old "gang" who have not had such a wonderful opportunity to get their juices flowing in ages! Especially to you Carol K since your inquisitive nature inquired. ( Or should that be spelled inquisition?). I am sitting on the hobby horse looking up the definition of hypocrisy just to be sure I am right on this one.
The comments in the copied post below have been on the "bull" thread since February 23. 23 days now. Not a single person who asked me for the identity of two bulls in PA have asked Carol Davidson the identity of any bull mentioned below. (And you really didn't think it was about anything and everything but two bulls in PA? Really? Perhaps the newer folks but I promise you the old-timers knew better).
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jamshundred
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Post by jamshundred on Mar 18, 2014 21:16:16 GMT -5
Oh, so sorry. It was not intentional. . .must have been when the quote box was added. Just in case there is any doubt by those reading this thread, it WAS Carol K who I told to POUND SAND. That sentiment has not changed.
Carol D. Amazing that the best you can do is suggest I am writing from the back of my hobby horse. Still, not a single one of the "gang" can put on paper a single, actual, character failure of mine. ( Pat on the back for me).
I was told that you were involved with the failed registry and cross-breeding program of the owner of the Wee Gaelic herd, and that when you were going to purchase his animals to take them to Canada they were all registered at the same time and that it was YOU who was behind it. True or not? The registration numbers of the herd at that time were certainly consecutive in a huge batch. I said NOTHING about Mrs. Fermoy and 1991 that I recall?
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jamshundred
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Post by jamshundred on Mar 18, 2014 21:03:01 GMT -5
Hmmmm. Well Carol, you brought it up and now questionable temper in Woodmagic bulls is in the public domain. I wonder if you have also heard that it is supposedly common knowledge in England that there were Woodmagic bulls that had temperament issues? And I wonder if you know about some offspring born AI in the US put down because owners were not happy with their personalities? Why didn't YOU give the name of that Woodmagic bull?
Judy
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jamshundred
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Post by jamshundred on Mar 18, 2014 20:55:04 GMT -5
Ref: The "Dexter" bull owned by the King of England. I have been searching through the herdbooks to find this animal and no where can I find his identity. I believe he was a crossed animal . I cannot find any record of a bull owned by the King which describes the animal as "black with white".
Ref: Marion's comments about Pardon Bullfinch. This is unsubstantiated by breeding in the US. I have personally spoken to every living breeder who used Pardon Bullfinch semen or had offspring breeding in their herds. NOT a one ever had white markings on their calves. I have NO doubt PB carried recessive white like almost all Dexters do. It has been there from the earliest records. BUT. . . . excessive white spotting like one sees in Holstein or Jersey cattle has NOT been in the US herd that I can discover until the importation of Lucifer and Saltaire Platinum, and like mentioned above Outlaw, though he is almost always in a pedigree with the L and S so you cannot be sure of the origin of the color. This we know: Lucifer had Jersey and according to Mrs. Rutherford probably some shorthorn. Platinum had unknown crossbred cows in several places. Could have been anything.
Judy
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jamshundred
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Post by jamshundred on Mar 18, 2014 20:46:10 GMT -5
Carol K,
I am interested to know ALL the breeders who have had LARGE calves born off the Saltaire Platinum bloodlines. Since you know of a number of them, would you name them for me?
Judy
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jamshundred
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Post by jamshundred on Mar 18, 2014 20:28:20 GMT -5
Excuse me Carol K. Of what should they take note? I AM a protector and preserver of TRADITIONAL DEXTER CATTLE. In the past YOU have been critical of me for NOT mentioning that there can be questionable tempers in traditional bulls.LOL! How hypocritical of YOU. The people who have been around for a while will recognize this as the usual "gang bang".
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jamshundred
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Post by jamshundred on Mar 18, 2014 20:22:22 GMT -5
Marion,
Another perfect example of the "gang" of you who has stalked me for 10 years mad as the dickens because of questioins I kept asking about and then the "outing" of Saltaire Platinum and really ticked off because I told you what was going to happen if politics did not cease and it DID! Your knickers are always in knots because you have NEVER been able to catch me in the wrong! Oh, my, but you do try though! None of you are honorable because you took part in . . . or supported the attempts to discredit me long after it was acknowledged I was right and truthful. And here you go again Marion. Never once have you put anything specific against me in writing. Why is that? Could it be because you simply cannot find anything beyond innuendo and insinuation? Yept.
So. . . .you are warning people about me huh? Do you know how many Dexter folks I've had dealings with over the 10 years you have been sniping at me? I love Dexters and Dexter owners and those who deal with me know it! Your warnings may make those who have yet to "meet" me wary, but I am confident the others will see right through you because you ARE pretty obvious to them. They know better.
But let's talk about me and Legacy and Legacy's accomplishments. And when you finish the read I give YOU permission to write back and tell ME what YOU have done for Dexters and their owners!
1. Founded the FIRST Dexter DNA database at the Univeristy of California - VGL laboratory. In 2004 I tried to get both ADCA and PDCA to use this world renowned facility, which developed DNA testing in cattle to recommend it to Dexter owners, and to help build a "Forever" genetic record of our breed. Note. . . that was in 2004.
2. C0-Founder of the Legacy preservation effort to raise awareness among breeders that traditional bloodline Dexter cattle were dwindling in numbers and hoped to encourage breeders to save these bloodlines. There has been growing success in this effort as more awareness exists and more breeders are moving away from the imports. Why was this necessary? Because members of the Dexter breed were LIED to about the upgraded genetics in imported bulls. The truth was not told. In American, there was never and still is NO upgrading allowed. Meanwhile imported bulls with upgrading were imported and the RARE bloodlines present in American began to be crossed with these imports and every offspring is NO LONGER a traditional bloodline. I am going to take a moment here . . . .. I have been disappointed that many members of the Dexter breed who use these bloodlines over time have been angry with me for discussing the upgrading, claiming fears it will harm their ability to sell. Do you know that NOT A SINGLE member of leadership or a SINGLE one of these breeders has ever lamented the hardship this scam brought to traditional HORNED breeders and the loss they have suffered?
3. Founded the first Dexter Genotype registry on this continent. It began as part of the Legacy preservation effort but grew with the support of Dexter breeders of all types.
4. Established the FIRST location where Dexter owners could have ALL tests performed at one location the TOP laboratory of it's type in the US, and world renowned for it's experience and expertise.
5. Established prices for testing that were LESS THAN HALF what Dexters owners had been paying at other labs. This pricing caused other labs to have to cut their prices. This was a wonderful effort and benefit to Dexter owners.
6. With the original research and efforts of Gene Bowen of this forum, negotiated with the A2 Corporation to bring A2 testing to America so that individual owners could test. The first license granted by A2 Corp was given to UCD.
8. Negotiated with Australia to bring Chondro testing to UCD.
7. Negotiated with Dr. Beever to gain permission to have PHA testing at UCD.
8. Developed the idea for DIRECT testing at CONTRACT prices with UC-Davis-VGL and worked to implement the testing that exists today because it was ultimately in the BEST INTERESTS of the breed and it's owners.
9. Instituted "purple pedigrees" in the Legacy online program so that there would be an ability for owners, breeders, and researchers to be able to trace breed characteristics through bloodlines with a single glance at a pedigree.
10. Designed Obligate certificates for Dexter owners to keep in their files or show potential buyers for A2, Chondro, and PHA testing which requires parentage confirmation of the obligate progeny. Not available elsewhere!
More in the works and more to come. Every effort for the Dexter breed and it's owners. So what part of all that do you think is so awful it should be connected solely to me Marion? Bless your mean-spirited little soul is all I have to say for you!
Judy
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jamshundred
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Post by jamshundred on Mar 18, 2014 19:43:09 GMT -5
Pretty sneaky Carol K. LOL!
First, the story about Parndon Charley Pudding being half-guernsey came from England and it came BEFORE there was much knowledge of the genetics of color. Since his mother was RED if PCP had been 1/2 Guernsey HE would have been red instead of black. Perhaps you have not heard or neglected to tell the OTHER rumor which is that PCP "may" have been 100% full blood, that Dr. Thower had some cattle from Scotland that had no registry papers on the farm and he could have been bred by one of them. The truth is. . . . his markers ARE very consistent with traditional Dexter cattle.
Next, the white spotting issue. The purity of PCP came into question when he was loaned to a farm that had dairy breed type cattle and calves appeared with white markings. Next, Winona Crapp from Canada exported a bull to a country whose herd permits upgrading and when bred to cattle there white spotting appeared. What was not taken into consideration is that ALL Dexter cattle likely carry genes of white spotting and when bred to crossed cattle also carrying white spotting you can expect white to appear. There ARE original Dexters that were registered "by inspection" with notations of white color, and there are photos of early cattle with white. Breed those recessives together and the white will pop out. I have seen a calf from Hedgehog 3rd and a fullblood pedigree cow that looked as if there was a layer of frost on the black coat. This faded as the calf matured. There is no published research as yet defining the white coloring found on various cattle and what causes various markings or patterns to appear.
While researching Parndon Bullfinch *I* personally called every living breeder who had used the semen and had calves from him and not a single one said they had ever had a white marking in any of their calves.
However, the imported bulls Lucifer of Knotting and Saltaire Platinum HAVE brought lots of white color to the US herd. It was AFTER Lucifer was imported that white really began to appear and ADCA changed their registration certificate in the 90's for breeders to draw white markings on a diagram when they registered their Dexters. There are calves down from these lines that are VERY colorful. You can find pictures of some of them on various websites. On the old Dakodan board one breeder posted a photo of one of his calves which looked very much like a red/white holstein. Sandy Thomas has a number of colorful calves on her website.
Judy
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jamshundred
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Post by jamshundred on Mar 18, 2014 19:15:10 GMT -5
Outofthebox. If you told me something in a personal conversation I would not run and post it on the internet. I have written that ANYONE who is concerned that a traditional bull born in PA ( and died there as well) might be in their five line pedigree ( which we are told is all that is needed to get a mongrel mutt from crossbred to purebred again), they need only write and ask me and I will tell them. That is the RIGHT way to do it.
Carol D - When I put a post on this board inquiring of you as to why you had made a negative comment about Ms. Fermoy being registered at the age of 5 ( which you handled in the first place), and then inquired as to why two of your bulls were not registered until 5 and 7 years of age, the post was edited and my question removed. There is censorship on this board that many users are not aware of.
You know of any number of bulls that were problematic. You know of rumors of TWO major herds in England that were later imported to the US. Why haven't you told breeders about those? And, lastly. . . .why did you repeatedly LIE about Saltaire Platinum being pure and for years cause all the hard feelings towards me for trying to tell the truth? Why didn't you stand up and be honorable about that issue, which has had far more ramifications to this breed than bad humored bulls.
Judy
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jamshundred
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Post by jamshundred on Mar 18, 2014 19:08:08 GMT -5
Here is the copy that I deleted. Having experienced this forum editing content or removing it I decided Olga might object although there is no profanity in my comments. Just honest emotions.
BEGIN COPY
POUND SAND ! You have spent every year you have been in Dexters baiting me and making negative insinuations which had no basis in reality. ( As a matter of fact you have never apologized for the attempts to discredit me when I was trying to uncover the truth on Saltaire Platinum which has now, at long last and many years too late, been acknowledged to be factual by the association on whose board you were serving at the time), and everyone who knows me or has ever had any exchange with me knows me to be honest and straightforward. That you do not like me is a given and frankly my dear tell it to someone who gives a hoot in hades.
END COPY
Marion, this should give the lie to your dramatics. Vitriolic. LOL! I have yet to hear you apologize for the vitrol I experienced for simply asking questions and trying to get the truth told about Saltaire Platinum. Have NOT seen YOU apologize yet for being so darn wrong dahling!
I find it real interesting that Carol K was sent the original post. It was on the board no longer than a few minutes and *I* know who was signed on at the time. Usual sneaky back-biting FEMALE stuff. So typical of the bunch. LOL!
Judy
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jamshundred
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Post by jamshundred on Mar 16, 2014 13:38:27 GMT -5
Barbara,
That's a crock and you know it. You are one of four who have stalked me for 10 years trying to find a "gotcha" moment. That you cannot never ceases to pleasure me.
Here's the tell of the bait.
(1) Had I wished to respond I would have.
(2) If it was just a simple follow-up question, it would have been, " Judy, checking to see if you missed my question about the bulls or chose to ignore it". The tell is the button-pushing innuendo of "However to come on an open forum, tell the world you know of two more bulls that owners said have issues and then not say who they were is not much help to other breeders".
My Momma didn't raise no dummy and I don't think yours did either so don't play dumb Barbara.
Judy
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jamshundred
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Post by jamshundred on Mar 16, 2014 12:14:37 GMT -5
Carol K
Suffice it to say I am not taking your bait.
My personal standard has always been and still is. . . . NOT to speak negatively as to any breeder or animal unless the information is already in the public domain. I am not breaking that standard to appease you. However, if there is any breeder with a concern they are welcome to contact me personally and I will tell them if either bull involved in these two incidents are within five generations of the Dexter they own.
Judy
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jamshundred
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Post by jamshundred on Mar 14, 2014 10:21:51 GMT -5
Good morning,
I am a breeder of dwarf cattle. I am also an avid researcher. I have been studying the early Irish herdbooks as well as the early English ones and other literature. They have fortified my opinions about dwarfism. The Dexter breed was organized as a DWARF breed of cattle. It simply had to be. Were there cattle that were "non-carriers"? Of course! When you breed two carriers together one option for the calf is to be a non-carrier. ( My least favorite Dexter type is the long-leg non-carrier product of two carriers).
In all the photos I've seen of earlier Dexters there are few non-carriers evident. I have a new collection of early Dexters I am about to add to my website, along with the completed "appendix" registry entries ( upgraded animals) to 2000. No one else has ever compiled these animals. I have all four categories just about ready to upload. I have almost completed the entire pedigree of the foundation animals for the Colorado herd ( closed in the mid 1970's and established on only 5 Dexters) which go back to the foundation stock in Ireland. Some of the animals in these pedigrees will be found in other tradiional bloodlines in the US and those breeders might find their entended bloodlines of interest. ( For those interested you can look through the pedigree of Colorado Maire. Not quite finished but getting close).
Years of experience lead me to believe that the base characteristics that described the Dexter breed came from the dwarf genetics. This includes size, but also the immune system, the forage conversion, but most importantly the personality.
I have a photo of Dexter cattle at a show just after the mid-1800's. Both the female and male are definitely carriers. Pictures from the earliest herdbooks are nearly all dwarf cattle and these are the ones that appeared to win in the show ring. Another thing I've noticed in the early breeding records. . bulldog calves did not seem to me to be of great numbers until about mid 20th century when the numbers seemed to increase in English herds drastically. I've been chewing on that. . .
In the first Irish herdbooks there seemed to be no restriction on size or weight. Just color. The breed was established on inspection ( QBI-qualified by inspection) is noted on most early animals ( and in the Legacy records). Any animal(Dexter type I assume) that won a prize or commendation at shows was eligible for entry.
When the breed was established in the late 1800's there was a variety of breeders with a cow here and there but I notice a few breeders I would probably term "cattle traders, speculators, or opportunists" began to flood the breed after the turn of the century. More on this later. I am traveling today and need to get movin'
Judy
I tried to add the description in the English herd book # 1 but I cannot get it to paste. Will do that later as well.
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