Saving American red

[marion]

Information that I have on Jamie O'Callen, is that he was tested in the US by Genetic Visions, and carries neither red nor dun. I dont have a copy of the official testing, but anyone wanting to choose an AI bull based on his potential for thowing colour, might want to check this information for themselves..marion

[marion]

Gene, Priapus was tested at U. Sask, including for red, and does not carry red...marion

[onthebit]

Nov 6, 2008 22:47:25 GMT -5 @genebo said:

Liz,

. They should be cows, preferably second calf cows, not heifers.

I take it a goat won't do?

What exactly is american true red? What makes them dif. from other red dexters?

[cddexter]

uh, guys, in the interests of accuracy, I think you will find that all red animals that appear to be descended direct from the original 1905+ imports are actually E+, which is wild, and not from 'e', which is the true genetic red. There's no such thing as american true red. Dexters (and all other cattle) are either black, or little 'e' recessive red or are E+, except that E+ isn't a 'true red' because it's only red in Dexters and Herefords.

Priapus and Jamie do not carry either 'e' or E+. We've heard oh yes they do, it was on an official form from Bovacan, oh no it was in letter form from Ron Black, no it was from Winona, no it was from Sheila. Too many changing versions and no evidence that any of those gave out wrong info.

Gene, if you want wild red from american sources why not go to Sandi, she has original red and it's already in semen form. Mind you, wild red is wild red is wild red. since it's all the same gene, and you seem to be selecting for color only, does it matter where it comes from?
Carol. PS: if I remember correctly, Fermoy was not supposed to leave Washington state.

[liz]

Carol does wild red act differently than 'e'? In breeding etc? Thanks, I 'got' the dun stuff but I have never truly understood what makes the two reds different, not visually so what is it? Thanks, Liz

[onthebit]

So is american red Wild red or true red and like liz asks...what the heck is the dif?

[cddexter]

Until about 10 years ago, it was thought that there were two coat colors: black (dominant) and red (recessive). All the other tones were considered to be from dilute genes found somewhere else, including all the various Simmi and Highland colors, and Blondes.

Then, because there was a perceived advantage to red holsteins, a man named Kluglund in Scandinavia searched for and found the locus for coat color, and discovered there were three alleles; black 'ED,' red 'e', and a third unexpected one, which he called 'wild' 'E+' because while it was the same color within a breed, it varied between breeds. Limos are black if homo E+, Jerseys and Brown Swiss are brownish and are all homo for E+, Hereford are red for E+, and so are Dexters.

I did the original research on this, using this new test for color, and found this out by using a line-bred small family of red x dun, with sons back on mother and to sisters. All the reds related back to Lucifer, a little 'e' recessive red bull. I expected to find that dun Dexters were E+ just like Jersey (a theory strongly propounded by an english owner), but in fact they were black at the base coat color locus. So much for that theory. I then tested a red bull from England and found him to be E+, which is how I learned we were red for that allele. I also tested some other reds, and confirmed that E+ was indeed red in Dexters.

Because I was working with a small population, and all the little 'e's I tested were carrot red, and all the 'E+'s were dark irish setter red, I thought there was a visual difference. But, John Potter did a lot more testing, and found that all tones of red can be found in both alleles. That goes for black and spotted noses, and dark legs as well.

So, in answer to your question, by looking at a red Dexter, you can't tell which allele is present. All the other stuff, like tones, brindle, black faces and legs, black or mealy noses, etc. are some form of modifier genes that can be found in any Dexter, and all date from the very beginning, not just from any crossbreeding, whenever it may have taken place. The U.S. dexters that on paper relate solely from early imports have so far all tested as E+, which is wild red. 'True' red should be a term reserved for the little 'e' real genetic red, which is not found in old U.S. lines, but came in with Lucifer and Platinum.

I think what you have going on is a desire to separate out and make important something that is just ordinary. Since wild red is wild red, I suppose there are those who think that they want to preserve the original SOURCE for the gene, and not use a more modern animal with the same color genetics?? If they did, they could use any Outlaw descendant, because he's homo E+. American red is identical color genetics to Outlaw, only with a fancy name attached.

In technical terms, wild red is dominant over recessive red, so if you have 'ee' you have homo true red, 'E+e' you have a hetero for each, but the dominant color will be whatever the wild red tone is over the recessive little e red tone, and E+E+ will be the wild red color tone. Ultimately there isn't much difference, and certainly no difference visually. Helped? C.

[liz]

Yes, thanks Carol. The reason that I asked was that watching the boards, I have sometimes seen a preference in staying to 'e' for breeding purposes, ie having a bull calf tested and finding that it was 'E+' and being disappointed. Frankly I didn't understand why ..... still don't but I imagine it was just some sort of 'preference'. Thanks again. Liz

[cddexter]

Hi Liz: none of it makes sense. That's the first rule. In the past several weeks, I 've seen Fermoy go from homo e to homo E+, the proof that Priapus and Jamie carry red go from a formal form to an informal letter, from the lab to Sheila to Ron to others. How can you believe anything that's said? 'American red' if you want to call it that, is actually E+. As far as I know, the only little e's in North America so far have been through the introduction of Lucifer and Platinum, both bulls that have been attacked and picked on and discredited by a small group, but at the same time the same group says their redness is the only right one and it has to be saved because it's the real true american red...oh no, I mean the other red? Gimme a break. carol d.

[marion]

Gene, Priapus was a Canadian bull, and his test was done in Canada SRC Bova-Can (U. Sask), and Jamie O'Callen being a US bull, was tested in the US at Genetic Visions.
The attempt to correct what seems to be an error, is because people use these chat boards to get Dexter information. So, other people could go looking to buy semen based on the bull carrying red or dun.
Priapus, who now seems to have been consigned to the junkpile, is still a "good" bull. He just doesn't carry red..marion

[cddexter]

Gene: there was a red in Florida that had no English influence and Sandi Thomas has a bunch and we know her red didn't come from Bullfinch. That makes Fermoy one of several, not the only one. I didn't check any American reds per se, but a number of reds in the US have been tested, and some of those are not related to any recent English imports, making them orginal genetics, and my information is they are all E+. I could well be misinformed, so if you have hard fact info to the contrary, let me know.

If you want evidence, try calling a source. Ron Black will have original information direct from Sheila. Therefore his word is based on her official report and should be good. You have one person who thinks she got the info from Ron but can't find anything now, and you have another breeder who called Ron just recently and was told no red. Which one do you choose to believe?

Further, there is no such thing as American Red. This is a name you (plural) have come up with to make it sound special. E+ is E+, whether it came here in 1905 or 1997, it 's still the same gene. And, that color gene is found all over the world, not just in 'America'.

Do you know why Fermoy only had nine calves in 17 years? That's a lot of missing calves. Are there fertility problems with her? If all this broughaha is just because of red, why not look to some of the other original genetics reds and work from them? c.

[cddexter]

Gene, next morning...

Please understand I'm not attacking Fermoy or you. She's a great old cow who for me raises some questions. I'm sure you genuinely believe what you post. I just have a different view.

I knew Charles Pacheco well, and bought his entire herd when he was selling out because it was mostly my genetics and I'd just moved to a new much bigger farm with room for more animals. Most people don't know (and some would prefer to forget) that Charles ran several bulls all in the same field, not all Dexter, was doing crossbreeding, and didn't register anything for about five years, so by the time he did register he couldn't remember who was who. When I saw the list of what I was buying, I was really excited because two of the cows were 100% my breeding from animals I'd sold him several years earlier and bought back, but when they arrived, they were both dwarf registered as from two nons, and the birth date on one was the same as the year he told me (at the time) the cow had had a bull calf. As well, because he hadn't kept his vaccinations up to date, he had his vet vaccinate the entire herd for Bangs, even animals too old. When they were being tested to cross the border, this caused the USDA vets to have a heart attack because a bunch of the cattle came up positive for the disease, and WA is a dairy state, and they thought they had an outbreak. Even though we could prove the animals had been just vaccinated, the governments weren't about to take a chance, and instead of getting about 25 head, I got about 15, and the other 10--one of whom was Fermoy--were not supposed to leave the state.

That's why I ask questions. I'm suspicious but willing to believe Fermoy's red came from distant Dexter relatives and not from the Tarentaise in Charles' field because she herself doesn't look T, and hasn't produced any offspring that throw back to a T look.

I didn't test Fermoy but I'm pretty sure John Potter did. I seem to remember John saying that all early u.s. reds were E+E+. Why not ask him if you want to save the money on a test?

I'm down on 'American red' simply because it doesn't exist as such. It's not a special separate different gene. It's a well documented fairly common one. If you really do want to work from E+ only without Outlaw, then I ask again: why not get semen from Sandi? She has some good stock and her early reds (and semen from same) were from pre-import days. Isn't that what you are looking for?

This is not raining on your parade (although I'm sure I've dampened your enthusiasm). It's trying to prevent a scam for people who don't know enough to understand the genetics who might think 'American red' IS something special instead of just an old not uncommon gene with a new fancy name.

As always, just trying to clarify for those without the experience. Regards, Carol.

[tiffin]

Gene: For whatever it's worth which is probably nothing I just realized I had a bull calf this past summer that is a descendant of Ms. Fermoy. I sold him. He was black. I never tested him for colour so I don't know if he carries red. Perhaps the new owners will test.

[liz]

Hi Gene; I am pm'ing you Ron's coordinates. L

[liz]

Hi Gene; For me this isn't a 'snipe' hunt. I am the person who quoted Ron Black, he has the data on our bulls/cows. Priapus's a Canadian bull that is readily available here and being a red carrier would do a lot for the red genetics in Canada, so frankly I would love to hear that he does carry red! However, until there is incontrovertible proof to the opposite, he is officially on record with CLRC as tested and not being a red carrier. As Marion said though, he is still a good bull with good qualities and I personally would not hesitate to use him, just not to produce a red baby! My questions to Carol, actually have nothing to do with Ms Fermoy, just trying to clarify 'red' and 'wild red' in my head. I think your enthusiasm about Ms. Fermoy is great. I just brought home two new babies today myself so I understand enthusiasm with our Dexters!
And yes you maybe a 'bit' biased in Brenn's direction, but heck he is your boy and he's a nice one ! Liz